Subject: New message board!! From: Sam M. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 23:17:48 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: To All, The new message board is up and running! The board is at http://www.uplandbirddog.com/forum/dcforum/dcboard.cgi Before posting messages, please read the rules and guidelines of the forum (link on middle left). We hope the new board is as enjoyable and interactive as this one. All messages on this board will be archieved in The Training Center. I'll keep this board up for a few more days. Thanks for all your help and it was fun and enjoyable. See you there on the new board! Good dog training and thanks, Sam M.

Subject: english pointer From: walt To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 18:08:44 (PDT) Email Address: paulwlt@aol.com Message: i just got an english pointer who is 7 years old.he definatly knows what a bird is. my problem is when he sees a bird he wants to go right after it instead of pointing how can i break him of this?he also dont want to retrieve birds just tries to eat them? any help would be greatly appresiated.thanks.

Subject: Re: english pointer From: Hombre To: walt Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 23:39:03 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: You might not like my cure, but the suggested cure for that is to get a pup to go with him, train the pup and then let the older dog learn from him. If he doesn't learn, which he probably won't, you will still have the pup to use for hunting. Good luck Hombre

Subject: Handling Problem From: Mark K To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 15:53:27 (PDT) Email Address: mk@megsinet.net Message: I am currently running a 3 year old female pointer ( Fiddler Bloodline) in NSTRA. I have placed the dog 4 times since last October. Since the begin of the fall trial season she has been a handful to keep on the field. Periodic spells of running out of bounds have had her disqualified twice this season. During yard work and training this dog handles. E-collar has been used sparingly to enforce commands while trianing. No physical reprimands ie Flushing whip have been used thus far. In a trial situatiuon she handles sporatically between long cast in and out of bounds. This dog handles birds ,backs and retrieves with no problems. Some where in the transition from the e-collar to running off lead I have missed something. How do I make this transition and still have a dog that handles? Is the flushing whip in order? I would appreciate any serious comments Thanks Mark K

Subject: Re: Handling Problem From: Maurice To: Mark K Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 19:21:39 (PDT) Email Address: southerngundog@aol.com Message: I would collar condition this dog completely. The only time it would run without a e-collar would be at a trial. Last week I went and watched a nstra trial. I saw many nice dogs running, it was in a 50 or 60 acre field. NSTRA has caught on here like wildfire in SC.

Subject: Re: Handling Problem From: Mark K To: Maurice Date Posted: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 15:16:49 (PDT) Email Address: mk@megsinet.net Message: This is what I have been doing but this dog became collar wise very quickly.

Subject: NSTRA still using 50 acre birdfields? From: Bob K To: Mark K Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 18:27:02 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message:

Subject: Region 9-12 American Field From: Sam M. To: All Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 23:01:01 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: To All, Check out the region 9-12 Western American field trial schedule. This schedule was contributed by Region 11. http://www.uplandbirddog.com/region11/index.html Good luck and happy field trialing. Sam M.

Subject: Johnny House II From: Charles B To: All Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:12:02 (PDT) Email Address: charlesbryant@mtec.net Message: Just completed building a JH from the LC Supply plans. Tough task if you follow their plans to the letter. Have it stocked with quail and I've been releasing them early in the morning on my days off. I've lost one bird so far. How many should I release at a time? I'm feeding starter mash and scratch feed. Should I include some type of grit with the scratch feed? I'm training my 5 mo. GSP 3 to 4 mornings each week on the released quail(checkcord on). Is this enough or to much? Appreciate any advice. If anyone is interested I can give them some tips on the Lion Country Johnny House construction.

Subject: Re: Johnny House II From: Bob K To: Charles B Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:52:58 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: I'll usually train my recall birds by releasing 1/3 to 1/2 of them daily for 3 weeks before working a dog on them. I lose fewer that way early. Grit's up to you. I don't bother, figuring they're outside the pen often enough to pick it up on their own. Don't make it too easy for your pup to find birds too often. That's a real danger with young dogs and pen-raised birds. I'd give him less guaranteed exposure; make him hunt hard for them. Contact once/twice a week is plenty. Good training. Bob K

Subject: Re: Johnny House II From: Charles B To: Bob K Date Posted: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:48:43 (PDT) Email Address: charlesbryant@mtec.net Message: With my work schedule it is evening training sessions with no bird contact or wild birds only for the first three days. The last four days are early morning bird contact with three to four release birds and a late evening run in wild bird areas. I like to keep actual training sessions short and the evening runs just short of tiring and letting up. I do have a problem wih releasing birds daily because it is still dark when I leave for work. Thanks Charles

Subject: New Message Board From: Sam M. To: All Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 11:14:54 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Hi All, Thanks for testing the new message board. I should have it up Thursday evening. After Oct 5th the current board will no longer be operational. After that date, please direct your comments and questions to the new training forum at http://www.uplandbirddog.com/forum/dcforum/dcboard.cgi There is still time to test the new board and all messages will be deleted before uploading to the site. Previously, the new board was setup to require a password and login name to post messages. As some of you found this was cumbersome and may have prevented users from posting. Therefore, the login and password requirment is now disabled. Comments and feedback are welcome. Thanks, Sam M.

Subject: Re: New Message Board From: Geo To: Sam M. Date Posted: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 07:22:08 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: Thanks Sam for your hard work ........ Will you have a link set up from this site to go to new board or do you need to bookmark the new site ? Geo

Subject: Re: New Message Board From: Sam M To: Geo Date Posted: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:05:01 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Thanks, Geo. After Thursday, this board (hotboards) will only be up to indicate our move to the message board. All current messages will be archived and can be viewed in The Training Center. I'll make various links within UplandBirdDog.com to the new message board. Thanks, Sam M.

Subject: Re: New Message Board From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:33:56 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Sam, are you going to save your archives and move them over? If not I want to copy and save them into word of word perfect, there are some damn fine training ideas contained in them, especially in the first few archives (IMHO). Hombre

Subject: Re: New Message Board From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:48:16 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Hombre and all, All articles and training archives in the Training Center will be available from the new training forum (at the top). I'll have the link up by Thursday. Please do not download or copy any post without written permission from the author and UplandBirdDog.com. I agree there are many posts worth remembering. Sam M.

Subject: Hump a Hump a burning love From: Mike G To: All Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 08:48:43 (PDT) Email Address: mgrandick@prodigy.net Message: One of my two vislas (the 15 month intact one) has developed a habit where he tries to mount my older male while the older male is making a retrieve. This causes the older male to mess up his retrieve. I realize this is not a uncommon thing in the dog world with the dominance thing and all, but I was wondering if using my e-collar on the pup would be a good way of breaking this behavior? I haven't used the collar on Lucky yet and try to avoid using the collar on behaviors I'm not real confident with. I will hunt them together about half of the time so I'd like to break Lucky of this. Plus my wife and daughter find it disgusting. Thanks Mike G

Subject: Re: Hump a Hump a burning love From: Sam M. To: Mike G Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 10:17:41 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Be careful with using an e-collar on a dog that might precieve the stimulation as a dominance issue. The stimulation might actually promote aggressive behavior especially when the domiante dog is being stimulated. Try teaching both dogs to honor through the retrieve. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Hump a Hump a burning love From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:07:51 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Agreed Sam. Never hit a dog when another is standing close by, a fight is usually the result. Teach the mounting one to honor as Sam says. There are several methods of doing that. Hombre

Subject: Question About Breeding From: Ed W To: All Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 14:41:05 (PDT) Email Address: ekwalker@hotmail.com Message: I was just wanting some info about breeding. What is line breeding? and how many genrerations should there be between the Sire and the Dam? I got to see my dogs sire run a field trial this weekend and I think I am hooked, it is incredable how much my dog is like his sire. If anyone has any answers for me it would be great.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: EdW To: Ed W Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:27:30 (PDT) Email Address: ekwalker@hotmail.com Message: Sam, It was a NSTRA trial in Amo,IN. We watched from observation towers. Thank for the reply's I was just interested in some of the terms they use. I looked at some pups this they are bred Fiddler and Miller Chief. MY dog has both of these 3 and 4 generations back.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Sam M. To: Ed W Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 10:28:47 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: It is alot of fun to watch and run dogs in field trials. Did you ride horses? I'm not a breeder so perhaps, others might have better comments. Line breeding is a term used for breeding dogs of similar genetic material. In contrast to an outcross breeding, those that have different gene pools. Breeding dogs for performance is highly variable and it seems every breeder has an opioion and thus your question is difficult to answer. Good luck Sam M.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:04:01 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: I was hoping Bob K would answer thist one. Line breeding is inbreeding. The national futurity trials for shorthairs is mainly for line bred dogs, and the closer the breeding the better they like it, like father and daughter or sister and brother. It is possible to make rapid improvements with line breeding however it carries the same risk of throwing inferior dogs where a bad recessive gene comes out in some funny places. For instance we had some Chihuahuas breed sister to brother and they threw big dogs with longer hair that looked like ordinary mutts. But more often in our pointing breeds there is little problems that crop up. Bob, respond here? Hombre

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Blake B. To: Hombre Date Posted: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 07:39:55 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Hombre: I am confused by your comment about the two GSP futurities. The NGSPA and GSPCA futurities are for dogs from nominated litters falling in a certain age group. For the most part, under two years old, although some American Field futurity dogs depending on whelp dates can be over two. The futurity has nothing to do with the sire and the dam, other than the fact that most breeders will only nominate litters out of FC, NFC, NSDC, etc. bitches and dogs. It has nothing to do with line breeding, except in the cases where a breeder has bred two of his dogs, sometimes a mother to a son, and he wants to keep his 'bloodline' in the public eye, so to speak. If you read the GSPCA newsletter, and look at the litters nominated with the sire and dam listed, most of the time, the sire and dam are bred because of their own desirable traits, they win!!, not for closeness in blood.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Bob K To: Hombre Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:37:40 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Hombre I've only done limited breeding, but I've bought into many litters in 30+ years and looked closely at more. Inbreeding is simply line breeding carried to the extreme. Bob Wehle and others have done it to establish their foundation stock. You have to be very knowledgeable and willing to cull ruthlessly as inbreeding concentrates both the good and bad traits, hence the need to have real strong starting material. Occasionally you get poor health results and smaller sizes too. There’s a mathematical measure of inbreeding called the coefficient of inbreeding (COI.) Breeding a half brother and sister will calculate at 19% COI. Breeding a typical father-daughter will raise that to 39-40%. The few really strong AKC studs in the pointing breeds have been used so much that you can barely breed a zero COI litter. One truism remains: purebred dog breeding is predictably regressive, i.e. you generally get less in a pup than in either the sire or dam, sometimes both. This is so true there’s a name for the phenomena, Galton's law of filial regression. For this reason, many of the out-crosses advertised to juice up a line or add new blood are frequently suspected as introducing cross breed vigor. Bob K

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 14:08:15 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: As I mentioned earlier, I am not a breeder. I agree that line-breeding and in-breeding is breeding relatives, however, in-breeding is breeding close relatives vs line breeding which is breeding distant relatives. In genetic terms this is a big difference. Unless you are a breeder and know the genetic makeup of these dogs and are breeding for a specific trait and willing to cull, IMHO there is very little reason to inbreed parent to offspring or brother to sister. All dogs have some deleterious genes and mating very closely related individuals greatly increases the chance that these genes may become dominate and produce defective pups. Sam M.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: EdW To: Sam M. Date Posted: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:21:15 (PDT) Email Address: ekwalker@hotmail.com Message: I guess there is several different opinions about this subject. I guess a generation or two would be safe? I am just getting into the Birddog game. I bought a full sister to my dog for my father, I do not plan on breeding them, I am considering buying another pup this fall. I just thought I would try to find a pup that might be compatable to my dog. I think I am even more confused than before now. My dog has a wonderful attitude and is easy to train. Lotts of natural ability. My fathers dog has even more point in her than my dog, she is just a year old now.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 16:35:38 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Sam, after your post I did a search on the term. What I said is from different things I learned about it from such places as from Robert Wehle, famous dog breeder andfield trialer +, and who is the owner of the famous Elhew Kennels, originator of the Elhew line of pointers which were started out as and maintained as line bred with occasional out crosses. Here is a site you might be interested in which does line breeding of Chesapeake Retrievers with occasional out crosses, and below the link is a portion of the page copied for your and others convenience. The whole page is well worth reading to those interested in breeding, be it line breeding or not. Hombre http://www.northernflight.com/breed.htm#Line-Breeding 'Line-breeding' is a form of inbreeding but in its truest sense, inbreeding is simply the mating of close relatives with little or no knowledge of the increased proportion of genes coming from the related ancestors of the sire and the dam. Inbreeding, without this knowledge, is just as likely to pass along undesirable traits as desirable ones into future generations.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Adrian To: Hombre Date Posted: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:31:34 (PDT) Email Address: AdrianJcksn@aol.com Message: I breed several litters a year, I do like a degree a line breeding in my dogs. I breed to the sire or the sire's bloodline of my dam's dam. For example the litter I have on the ground now, the sire: Miller's Silver spot, his sire is Miller's Silver Bullet and his dam is Topshelf Chief Lady ( Miller's Chief ex Guard Rail Susan), now by bitch is by a son of Elhew Snakefoot but her dam is The Spring Rose which her sire is Miller's Silver Bullet ex Tom's Beautiful Bess ( Miller's Chief ex Guard Rail Susan) In this breed I could not breed back to Miller's Chief because he is dead but I did the next bext thing I breed to a dog that was breed exactly like the dam's dam. I hope I explain this right.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Bob K To: Adrian Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 08:21:37 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Adrian That appears to be a fairly standard line bred litter. If you did a COI calculation it would run the impacts of Miller's Silver Bullet and Guard Rail Susan separately and sum them. Bob K

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Adrian To: Bob K Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 13:57:06 (PDT) Email Address: AdrianJcksn@aol.com Message: I the only percentage I figure on these pups where that they were 34% Miller Chief blood. Adrian

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Bob K To: Adrian Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 14:25:04 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: No question they're line bred on MC. For them to be COI 34% on MC, he'd have to be the sire and probably the grandsire; COI is a different, more refined concept.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Sam M. To: Bob K Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:38:41 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: With the interest in pedigrees, I uploaded Sage's pedigree in http://www.uplandbirddog.com/dogcamp/sageped.html. I have in front of me a pedigree of Ch Sierra Gold (owned by Ron Young) which is out of National Ch. Brush Country Spectre and Rester's Ricochet. It indicates inbreeding of 22% for Miller's Silver Bullett. I assume this is the COI for him. As for Galton's law of filial regression, I understand it to be a regression towards the mean. In other words, if you have two tall parents (above the average height) then the offsprings would likely be the height of the average height of the parents but still be taller than the mean. Similarly, if you have short parents (less than the average) than the offsprings will be taller than the parents but shorter than the average height. Sam M.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Bob K To: Sam M. Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 11:28:45 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: As for Galton's law of filial regression, I understand it to be a regression towards the mean. Similarly, if you have short parents (less than the average) than the offsprings will be taller than the parents but shorter than the average height. Sam, I don't believe this is correct. If it were all you'd have to do is repeatedly breed and every breeding would improve the pool by creating pups better than the 'average' of sire and dam. Clearly this isn't the case. Regression applies to results below the average of sire and dam. Bob K Sam M.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Sam M. To: Bob K Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:36:05 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Bob, Galton used statistics to study human genetics. He used the term 'regression' (I believe he coined the term) in a statistical way; that is the relationship of a mean to some independent variables. Regression is now used in may ways and in different contexts. Perhaps, this is the source of discord. As for your example, I agree breeding so-so dogs results in an average dog. Using Galton's idea (if it can be applied to dogs), the offsprings will only be average regardless of the number of breedings. Thus, the need for a highly selective breeding program is imperative to help improve the breed. Sam M.

Subject: Re: Question About Breeding From: Sam M. To: Sam M. Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:38:40 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: I should also say, that Sir Francis Galton's (1822-1911) concept (as far as I know) did not take into account 'selection'. Therefore, if you want to improve any breed than a highly selective process (both genotype and phenotype) must be taken into account with the understanding of knowing what goals to achieve. Sam M.

Subject: New Dog From: Robert To: All Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:41:45 (PDT) Email Address: rgranel@yahoo.com Message: Thanks everyone for the feedback. My lab seems to be retrieving well in my backyard. I took him out in the country for the first time and he didn't seem to like it much. He was scared to move around in taller brush and didn't seem to show much curiousity in his surroundings. He either walked on the side of me or behind me. He is only a couple of months old but I was still hoping he would be more enthusiastic. There is a video that Amazon.con sells on how to train retrieving dogs. Has anyone seen it? I may buy it.

Subject: Re: New Dog From: Hombre To: Robert Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:57:56 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: He is doing fine for eight weeks. Even a good part of the GSP's are hesitant at that age. Keep taking him out. During the week take him to parks and places. Close by golf course maybe? What do you want to train your dog to do? Hombre

Subject: Re: New Dog From: Robert To: Hombre Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:11:43 (PDT) Email Address: rgranel@yahoo.com Message: I intend to take him out pheasant hunting. Fortunately, I live in an agricultural community in Central CA and have lots of fields to take him to. The only bad thing is the wild pheasant population is almost wiped out in my area. There are very few wild birds left. I am hoping to train him without using live birds. I just don't want to go through having to purchase and keep live birds. Have you ever heard how well dogs can be trained without using live birds?

Subject: Re: New Dog From: Hombre To: Robert Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:30:31 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: You can teach most of your retriever training without the use of live birds, but with teaching it to hunt and flush there is no other way than live birds. Hombre

Subject: Staunching From: Mike To: All Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:33:04 (PDT) Email Address: mrhmep@execpc.com Message: I have a 16 month Wirehaired Pointing Griffon bitch that I have been training for about a year now. I have been taking it pretty slow and doing obedience training as well and trying to be very thourough. Right now she is a literal pointing machine that I am greatly pleased with for the most part. I have used pigeons exclusively held in wireless launchers for training. The problem I have is that I will be working her out in the field on the planted birds, she'll go on point and hold steady no matter how far away I am, but once I approach her and head in to where the bird is planted she will bolt in like if to beat me to the game. She is real cooperative up until she finds a bird then it seems she doesn't want me to 'claim her prize'. All the training I have done has been positive re-enforcement and it shows by here strong desire to hunt as well as please. During our training sessions, the moment I see her break point I release the bird and it flies out of sight, I set her back to the place she was on point at and 'whoa' her as I walk in to the empty trap and kick around. If I continue to do this, even when I walk ahead of her to the bird, will she eventually hold her point while I walk into the bird or will I keep setting pigeons free? About how many birds would it take to staunch her solidly? Any advise here would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: Re: Staunching From: Blake B. To: Mike Date Posted: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:40:29 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: The breaking process is a somewhat long tedious job. I would suggest reading many books and articles on the process to get an idea about the steps. By being patient you can usually have a dog steady in 60-120 days. Every dog is different, though. Repetition is the key. Breaking is much easier when done with a helper. One person can lead the dog in on a checkcord and the other can drop birds, flush, shoot, depending where you are in the process. There are man books that outline methods of breaking, Point by Spencer, Wing and Shot by Wehle, Gun Dog Training Pointing Dogs, etc. Patience will pay off in the long run with a broke dog with style. I have heard pro trainers say they can break a dog in X number of days. Usually they use a shock collar set too high and take all the style out of the dog. I would say, not knowing your dog, that 16 months is a little young to be breaking the dog. I would keep working on whoa in the yard. Plant birds, if the dog is showing signs of being ready to break, then start, gently. You can tell a dog is ready when it is easing up on chasing, has been hunted on wild birds enough that it has developed its desire and skills, that it fully understands whoa, heel, and here, and that it is conditioned to an e-collar. You also must be prepared to...use a helper, have MANY pigeons, know that many short sessions(60-100) are better than longer ones, and that you must use a calm, demeanor, as to not intimidate the dog.

Subject: Re: Staunching From: Sam M. To: Mike Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 16:22:23 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Congrats on your Wirehair and it seems you have done a wonderful job trainig her to this point. Using the method as outlined your dog will eventually learn and hold its points. How long will that take depends on many variables, however, I suggest you add negative reinforcement to your methods as well as positive reinforcement. A combination of these processes will make for a better trained dog. The proper use of a pinch collar will help here, especially if the dog understands how to stand or whoa. After she pushes the bird into flight (or you launching the bird) use the pinch collar to stand her up and continue to simulate flushing. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: First 'Hunt' From: Fix To: All Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:22:34 (PDT) Email Address: dfix16@yahoo.com Message: I took my 11 month old GSP out for her first 'hunt' last weekend. We were in some good grouse/woodcock cover. I've had her out for walks, fun-timing, and she seems to work pretty well. The problem is she bumps and chases. She doesn't even flash point. Now I've read several postings about this and I understand that this is a natural progression for young dogs to do this. Is there anything I can do to enhance her training and break her of bumping while on wild birds? Or should I just let her continue on and let her teach herself? I live in an apartment and having penned birds would be difficult at best. Plus I would rather expose her to wild birds being as my inexperience with penned birds may cause more problems. Thanks Dave Fix

Subject: Re: First 'Hunt' From: Sam M. To: Fix Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 16:09:25 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Yeah, this can be very frustrating for some owners especially if their dogs are big runners. For the time being, I suggest you let her learn how to handle wild birds. However, this does not mean to just let her go crazy but work with keeping her going your way and do some basic training like here and come around. Try not to shoot birds she has bumped up as this will prolong her pointing birds. After the hunting season, work and train her to your expectations. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: NO PICK UP BIRD From: TIM To: All Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 08:58:14 (PDT) Email Address: TB@TCI.COM Message: I HAVE AN 8 MONTH LAB.SHE WILL RETREVE ANYTHING YOU THROW FOR HER .BUT I STARTED HER ON LIVE BIRDS AND SHE RAN UP SNIFFED IT BUT WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.I USED PIN RAISED PHEASANTS SHOULD I HAVE USED A SMALLER BIRD TO START HER ON .AND WHY IS SHE NOT INTERESTED IN THE BIRD.

Subject: Re: NO PICK UP BIRD From: Hombre To: TIM Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 09:03:42 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: What did you do to make her interested in birds first? Your answer lies in that question. Hombre

Subject: Re: NO PICK UP BIRD From: TIM To: Hombre Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 09:38:11 (PDT) Email Address: 1 Message: I WORKED WITH HED WITH PHEASANT SCENT AND A BUMPER WITH A WING .I GUESS I THOUGHT IT WOULD COME NATURAL TO HER.DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS HOW TO GET HER INTERESTED?????

Subject: Re: NO PICK UP BIRD From: Geo To: TIM Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 07:47:33 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: She will scent the bird but it doesnt interest her. This may be because she would rather chase a dummy or something else cause it is fun ... Hombre can help you with advice using live pigeons to get dog very excited seeing them flap around and chase them ..... That may solve your problem and then she will have a great interest in LIVE birds. Good Luck Geo

Subject: Re: NO PICK UP BIRD From: Hombre To: Geo Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:27:40 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: That is the answer Geo, have to make them want one. A dog exposed to them a lot (country dogs) just start doing it, but a kenneled dog or house dog quite often have to be teased, or else it may take a long time. I tease all dogs/pups I start, I like them real birdy. There are several methods of doing this. I have my favorites but will do anything to excite them, like let a few pups into the pigeon coop, or toss a pigeon into the kennel with them, hold one by the feet and let it flap it's wings waving it back and forth, even slapping the pups with it (lightly) when they are franticly trying to grab it, by pulling the flight feathers out of one wing and letting it walk around near them, by locking wings behind them and letting them walk around, by dizzing one slightly and tossing it on the ground, cutting the dog loose as it is about ready to be able to fly and letting dog chase, by pulling six flight feathers out of one wing and tossing it in front of dog and letting him chase. Or even giving pups one to play with and laugh my butt off when they let it get away and fly off. Yesterday I put a few pieons in the kennel with the four month old pups and watched the pups frantically try to get to them as they landed on top of the dog houses or in the bracing above and moved about. (My doghouses are susended three foot off the ground, the pups have a ramp to climb up high enough for them to jump the rest of the way in. They can not reach the top) I will be working them on birds soon and they will will want them bad. Blake says hold them by one wing and let them flap around teasing the dog then toss it out. Anything to excite your dog and make him want it. It is best to excite them several times first without letting them have one. Then they will do anything to get one. Hombre

Subject: Re: NO PICK THANKS From: TIM To: Geo Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 12:29:05 (PDT) Email Address: J Message: THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT.

Subject: iL pointer training From: Michael To: All Date Posted: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:39:12 (PDT) Email Address: mikes@hcis.net Message: need some help with my german shorthair he is 2 years old need to find someone close to Marion IL to work with him for a month or so. e-mail me at mikes@hcis.net

Subject: part Pointer??? From: D. Arce To: All Date Posted: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 06:09:59 (PDT) Email Address: ivorytick@aol.com Message: We have a puppy rescued from the humane society. Were told it was a 'shepherd mix.' The puppy points! We've seen him do it twice and then go bounding after something. We're in an urban/suburban area of Miami. No hunting to be done here at all. My daughter is to train the pup as part of a 4H project. We are trying to determine any special considerations in training if he's part pointer. From pictures, I would say either English or German short-hair. Don't know where to go from here. Would appreciate any help and direction.

Subject: Re: part Pointer??? From: Blake B. To: D. Arce Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 06:04:12 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: I assume from your comments that your daughter will obedience train the dog. You say there is no hunting in your area and that the dog is probably mainly shepherd with something else mixed in. So, I assume you have no desire to have a hunting dog. Most dogs will flash point birds. It doesn't necesarily mean they have pointing dog in them. There should be no special concerns with the dog in obedience training.

Subject: test new board From: Sam M To: All Date Posted: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 06:14:08 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: To All, Sorry, I have not been of any help lately but I've been working on the new board as mentioned previously. I have most of it working and it's now testable. Before making the switch to the new board, I would like to give you the chance to test it and provide some input. The board URL(http://www.uplandbirddog.com/forum/dcforum/dcboard.cgi). Please read the message in 'Welcome to the new UplandBirdDog.com Message Board!' on the right side of the screen before login (click login icon). Thanks, Sam

Subject: Re: test new board From: Hombre To: Sam M Date Posted: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 07:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Looks like that is going to be a dynamite forum board Sam. Great job. Hombre

Subject: Loss of Scenting Ability From: Pat To: All Date Posted: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 05:35:46 (PDT) Email Address: pat@godinart.com Message: The strangest thing has happened recently to my 17 month old Brittany. I have been training him for at least a year now and he is well above average for a Britt in his natural hunting desire, drive, and scenting abilities. He recently passed two Field Dog tests and performed well above the expected criteria for the tests. About two weeks ago he started sneezing and snorting a lot. Earlier this week I took him duck hunting to help find any shot birds and then grouse and woodcock hunting. From watching his reactions in these situations it appeared he was not detecting the scent of the birds (he had several opportunities). Back home I did a few tests on his scenting. I used a planted dead bird three times and gave my 'hunt dead bird' command which he normally performs flawlessly. Even within 1 foot of the bird is was clear he could not scent it. I did the same thing with two live quail and again as I gradually worked him very close to these birds he showed no reaction to them. In past training he normally would go on point sometimes 30-40 feet from them. The last test was with food. I hid a piece of cheese and he could not scent that. Eventually I took the cheese and almost touched his nose with it and showed no evidence he detected it. It seems clear that his nose has totally shut down. An examination by a vet showed no obvious problems except a possible infection of some sort indicated by slightly swollen tonsils. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this?

Subject: Re: Loss of Scenting Ability From: Hombre To: Pat Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 09:15:52 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: From what I see you saying, especially with the cheese test, even though the test with dead bird and quail are almost conclusive in self, your dog has at least temporarily lost it's scenting ability. Though your vet did not spot an allergy reaction, try giving your dog something like benadryl*sp for a few days and see if there is big improvement. Give half a tab. Might not help, but won't hurt anything either. Hombre

Subject: Re: Loss of Scenting Ability From: Blake B. To: Pat Date Posted: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 06:11:21 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: I am no vet, so I assume it could be something biological. Maybe it is the time of the year and the area of the US you live. Could be an allergy to plants that is hidering his scenting ability. My initial thought was that he sounds bird shy. I don't know how much shooting was going on around him when you went duck hunting. Maybe there were three or four friends blasting away and that has caused the problem. Did you take several friends and only the one dog Grouse and Woodcock hunting. A first year dog needs to be hunted only with you. I am assuming a lot only because you didn't give us a lot of details. Has the dog been properly introduced to gun fire. Has he had a shtogun fired near him?? Is he used to multiple blasts? Any of these factors could be causing the problem. Brits at 17 months old are pretty young for duck hunting or a lot of shotguns being fired around them.

Subject: Re: Loss of Scenting Ability From: whoapost To: Pat Date Posted: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 19:39:55 (PDT) Email Address: n/a Message: The strangest thing has happened recently to my 17 month old Brittany. I have been training him for at least a year now and he is well above average for a Britt in his natural hunting desire, drive, and scenting abilities. He recently passed two Field Dog tests and performed well above the expected criteria for the tests. About two weeks ago he started sneezing and snorting a lot. Earlier this week I took him duck hunting to help find any shot birds and then grouse and woodcock hunting. From watching his reactions in these situations it appeared he was not detecting the scent of the birds (he had several opportunities). Back home I did a few tests on his scenting. I used a planted dead bird three times and gave my 'hunt dead bird' command which he normally performs flawlessly. Even within 1 foot of the bird is was clear he could not scent it. I did the same thing with two live quail and again as I gradually worked him very close to these birds he showed no reaction to them. In past training he normally would go on point sometimes 30-40 feet from them. The last test was with food. I hid a piece of cheese and he could not scent that. Eventually I took the cheese and almost touched his nose with it and showed no evidence he detected it. It seems clear that his nose has totally shut down. An examination by a vet showed no obvious problems except a possible infection of some sort indicated by slightly swollen tonsils. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this? --- Is cheese his favorite snack if not test him with something he really like let him have some of it then toss a piece into heavy grass where you know he has to find it by nose even though he saw you toss it. it would be very unusal for a pup to lose his nose if have had some that i thought had because when they were yung they instinctivly ponted birds later when they gained confidence it was like they could not smell and they started knocking birds good luck ,woapost

Subject: Johnny house From: Keith To: All Date Posted: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 09:27:39 (PDT) Email Address: Birdfever@msn.com Message: I am looking for plans to build a Johnny house for quail . If anyone has plans on how to build one please email them to me . I would really appreciate it. Keith

Subject: Re: Johnny house From: Sam M. To: Keith Date Posted: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 10:33:11 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Keith, I don't have a drawing for a JH plans but take a look of the pictures in JH web page. This should give you an idea of how to make one. In a few days, I'll have another web page of JH. They'll be pictures of funnels and doors for the birds to get inside. Also, I look for a 'barrel' JH used as a mobile JH. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: don't chase the chickens From: chris s To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 21:32:42 (PDT) Email Address: chrisswann@hotmail.com Message: I have a 10 month old gsp that is doing pretty darn well on birds (while we're working). But I live in a rural area and keep chickens. A few have gotten out and wind up dead at the paws of my dog. I am uneasy telling her not to chase these birds, fearing that I may confuse the whole issue in her mind. Any insight? I am getting the major political pressure from the family.

Subject: Re: don't chase the chickens From: Hombre To: chris s Date Posted: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 11:32:30 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Chris, I also have chickens and have to contend with that problem. Plus there is one hen and two geese that are buddies and don't stay in a pen all the time, but are allowed out to roam at times. I have the biggest problem when I have chicks which look more like game then the big chickens do. I allow the pups to chase and pin down the hen until they start getting old enough to hurt it. Then I watch closely to be sure they don't. The geese take care of selves until they get big enough too, then the pups pin them. My older dogs when let out know not to mess with them and I have to break the pups off of them. I take them out and make the pups real birdy first, then on birds. After that they are not allowed to mess with the chicken and geese any more which is kinda hard to teach without hurting them, but by he time they are four months I can call them off and it does not take long. By then they have got used to not killing them anyway, they only go for them for the chase, same as the cat. If the cat runs the chase is on, if not they come up and try to get it to. If your dog is already on birds go ahead and teach it to leave the chickens alone. One way of doing that is taking it into the chicken pen on a leash and telling it no everytime it tries to make for one. After some exposure (several times in the pen) it should back off and learns it is not to mess with them. Keep working it on birds though. Then you can use your E, turn a chicken out and finish breaking the dog off. No hard shock, just a heavy discomfort level, and tell him no. You will need to hide where he can't see you to make sure, tapping him as needed. Hope this helps Hombre

Subject: New Message board From: Mike G To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 13:10:12 (PDT) Email Address: mgrandick@prodigy.net Message: Sam I'm not sure what you want me to do with the message board but here is a post using the hyperlink on the homepage. Mike G

Subject: New Dog From: Robert G. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 13:09:44 (PDT) Email Address: rgranel@yahoo.com Message: I just bought a new lab. The dog is about 2.5 months old. I want to train him to flush and retrieve pheasants. I started by throwing a pheasant scented dummy and having the dog retrieve it which he is doing well. Is my dog too young to try something new? What should I teach my dog next? I was thinking of going out to nearby fields and planting the dummys and then having the dog find them. Any suggestions as I am new to this is GREATLY appreciated.

Subject: Re: New Dog From: Blake B. To: Robert G. Date Posted: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 08:06:35 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: There is a book that Hombre has recommended called, 'Hey Pup, Fetch It Up'. You might buy that. I have seen it at Barnes and Noble and Borders.

Subject: Re: New Dog From: Hombre To: Blake B. Date Posted: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 19:25:21 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: I didn't answer for the same reason Sam didn't, I have never trained a flushing dog. When I was a kid my dogs were flushers, but not ''trained'' other than what they taught themselves, they just kinda ran ahead quartering and flushing whatever there was and giving chase. When I was lucky I got a shot. The book ''Hey Pup Fetch It Up'' by Bill Tarrant is a darn good book and does talk a bit about using labs for flushing upland birds. It is about teaching retrieving, but touches on many other areas of dog training and uses. It is par excellent as to how to raise dogs and train in a very effective gentle manner. I recommend it to everybody that has a dog just for this last reason. The methods for teaching retrieving are very good for the retrieving breeds but must be adjusted somewhat to work with pointing dogs. Hombre

Subject: Re: New Dog From: Sam M. To: Robert G. Date Posted: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 20:23:03 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Hi Robert, Congrats on your new lab pup! Unfortuantely, I don't have much experience teaching flushing dogs. You might post in other message boards such as versatile.com. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Wrong kind of Dog? From: Chris To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 08:56:42 (PDT) Email Address: cbartal@laca.org Message: I have never had a hunting dog before. I really enjoy hunting pheasants. I recently bought a Jack Russell terrier not intending to use him for hunting. Someone told me they have heard of people using a JRT for hunting pheasants. I have never trained a hunting dog, does anyone have any suggestions on how I can train my dog to hunt pheasants?

Subject: Re: Wrong kind of Dog? From: Sam M. To: Chris Date Posted: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 20:17:56 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: If the dog likes birds enough to hunt them out than you can probably just take it out pheasant hunting. Teach it to stay within range and let it search birds for you. I suppose any dog within range is better than no dog when it comes to pheasants. If your serious about upland bird hunting, I suggest you get a bird dog or a flushing dog that is bred for bird hunting. You will have more enjoyment and satisfaction in the field. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Introduction to birds From: JASON To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 05:15:42 (PDT)