Subject: Flagging, again From: Brian To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 14:01:16 (PDT) Email Address: flyfisher@bambooflyrods.com Message: OK, I love everything my 6 mos. Pudelpointer does except the flagging. I've asked this before but think it's getting worse. Today, I took her to the preserve to let her run around. Well, they had planted 50 quail in the area was in (didn't know it) and she must have found almost every one, coveys busting everywhere! Once she broke them up she was like a maniac trying to find them. She pointed many and bumped just as many, which I really don't care much about due to her age. But, her tail was wagging most of the time. She'd disappear for a few minutes and when I'd find her she'd be on point (I'm real proud of that part) but the tail was wagging. It seemed to get worse as the day wore on. I'm not too concerned about anything she's doing except the flagging. I don't talk to her on point and let her do her own thing. I've watched her on point to see what she'd do on her own and she'd usually look at me then the bird and then jump in. Most of the time she'd jump in when I walked in for a flush. As the day wore on, I didn't do anything but sit and watch. I had a heck of a time getting her out of the field. I had to go back to the truck and drive away! Is there anything that can be done or will I just have to live with this? She at one time was very staunch. I understand she's just a baby but will this go away or get worse?

Subject: what is best automatic launcher From: krust To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 09:30:50 (PDT) Email Address: kbrust@midusa.net Message:

Subject: Re: what is best automatic launcher From: Dave C To: krust Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 10:30:50 (PDT) Email Address: david@crusoe.net Message: krust, I'm currently using the Innotek(small model) and the E-Z Release and train with a friend who uses the tri tronics, which tri tronics no longer makes the trap only the electronics. So far I'm extremely pleased with the innotek. In my opinion the range and reliability on the e-z release is poor, not to mention short battery life. On occasion the tri tronics units have failed to launch, which apparently was due to an adjustment. But not launching when needed can create problems. Of these three, in my opinion the Innotek takes it hands down! Good Luck Dave C

Subject: Puppy Observations From: Brian To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 07:57:51 (PDT) Email Address: flyfisher@bambooflyrods.com Message: I've had the Vizsla pup for less than a day now but it's interesting to note the similarities and dissimilarities with the 6 mos. Pudelpointer. The Vizsla is by far more bold than our first Vizlsa and maybe a tad more than the Pudelpointer at this age. She's 8 weeks old and already playing tug of war and stealing toys from the Pudelpointer. She's also eating out the same bowl side-by-side (not my intention mind you). She's very inquisitive and strange noises just attract her instead of scaring her. The Pudelpointer litter was pointing bird wings (I know not to overdo it) at this age but the Vizsla is not. I know that dogs progress at different rates and have read of some Vizsla's not pointing until much older. She goes limp as soon as you pick her up yet is inquisitive and bold when set down. I was able to pick her, clip her nails (for the first time) and even cut two too close. She never yelped when I cut her or put on the styptic powder to stop the bleeding. Whenever you touch this dog she stops to allow you to pet her. I'm not sure how good this is for hunting or not, though. This is going to be very interesting to compare their progress and attitudes when she arrives at the same stages as the Pudelpointer.

Subject: wild staunch: pen raised creeper From: krust To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 05:42:42 (PDT) Email Address: kbrust@midusa.net Message: Why are dogs so terrible on pen raised birds and when the hit a wild bird you can not make them move, can they smell the difference in the birds. Handling the birds is not the issue, i have seen it when the pros put the birds out

Subject: Re: wild staunch: pen raised creeper From: Dave C To: krust Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 10:03:00 (PDT) Email Address: david@crusoe.net Message: The answer to your first question is because they know they can crowd the pen birds. There are many factors in the answer to your 2nd question. Some possibilities include: 1) Unnatural scent on birds from handling, just because the planter may be wearing gloves don't think for a minute the dog can not smell human scent. When you remove gloves you touch them on the outside. 2) The dog knows its a set up. 3) They smell the tracks left by the bird planter, yes rubber boots are better but a dogs scenting ability is incredible. How do the 'pro's' plant birds? Dave C

Subject: before training starts and after From: krust To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 05:39:47 (PDT) Email Address: kbrust@midusa Message: If you are teaching a dog to whoa, do you just get him out of the kennel and start training, and after you are done just put him right back in the kennel, or do you let him run around before or after, or is it just training.

Subject: Re: before training starts and after From: Dave C To: krust Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 09:43:46 (PDT) Email Address: david@crusoe.net Message: krust, I believe the key to training is keeping it fun and exciting for both you and the dog. Try whoaing the dog as you let it out, and also as you put it back into the kennel. I think its a good idea to let the dog romp a bit before and after serious training. I also think its better to do more frequent, short training sessions, than less frequent, long sessions. The number of dogs and the amount of time you have will also determine your methods. Enjoy! Dave C

Subject: TEMPERAMENT From: JGLEADER To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 04:49:56 (PDT) Email Address: jamesgang@cyber-quest.com Message: Please help me with a temperament problem. I have an eight month old setter who has aggressive to pups since he was four months old. He is submissive to the dogs he lives with. He is very aggressive towards even young pups (10 week olds). He can be distracted with treats and/or praise, but if let to make eye contact he challenges and/or lunges at the other. He is absolutely a gentleman to humans. Any and all suggestions as to how to help get through this problem is appreciated. Thanks JGL

Subject: Chew on this one From: Eric S. To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:44:19 (PDT) Email Address: iammykidsdad@uswest.net Message: I'm reading 'Tarrant Trains Gun Dogs.' His method of introducing a dog to gunfire is to fire a .22 starting pistol from a distance and move closer. Now, here's the question, and it may be odd, but I am a tad bit kooky (I'm a postal worker, after all). Being testosterone driven, I own a DVD player and the whole home theater bit. I'm also an action/adventure fan. Given the clarity of digital recording, would watching shoot em ups on DVD help prevent gun shyness? I think it might, but the only evidence I have to support my hypothesis is the fact that both our pound mutt and our chihuahua are cool as cucumbers during the 4th of July. Whatever your opinion, it won't stop me from training my Weim with actual gunfire. This is kind of one of those 'If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?' type questions.

Subject: Breeding From: Adrian Jackson To: All Date Posted: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:05:17 (PDT) Email Address: AdrianJcksn@aol.com Message: I have bred and have plan breeding of daughter of Ch. Miller's Silver Bullet to stud dogs out of Ch. Fiddler's Ace and Ch. Fiddlin Rocky Boy bloodlines. I like the bird finding ability in Miller's Silver Bullet dogs and I like the style, intensity on point and toughness of Fiddler bred dogs. Do anyone have experience with this cross of bloodlines. Adrian

Subject: Re: Breeding From: Bob K To: Adrian Jackson Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:28:09 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: With due respects to Sam, if you want an informed and perhaps irreverent answer, ask this question on Frank Thompson's board. http://www.accucomm.net/~gn052/ Bob K

Subject: Re: Breeding From: Adrian To: Bob K Date Posted: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 09:07:36 (PDT) Email Address: AdrianJcksn@aol.com Message: With due respects to Sam, if you want an informed and perhaps irreverent answer, ask this question on Frank Thompson's board. http://www.accucomm.net/~gn052/ Bob K --- I have a few dogs crossed this way out of Honky Tonky Attitude ex a daughter of Silver Bullet and a male out of Bodatious ex a daughter of House's Rain Cloud. They are young, I would like to know what other that have dealing with a similiar cross experience. I have 2 daughter of Silver Bullet, 1 daughter of Miller's True Sprit and 1 daughter of House's Rain Cloud. I also on the other end have some tight bred Fiddler males and females. I have several litters planned to find a few NBHA prospects and a few hunting dogs. I live in Texas and have 10,000 acres of prime training grounds with lots of wild birds to make a dog, my main goal is to find out what to exoect from this cross.

Subject: Training intervals From: Kelly To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:21:28 (PDT) Email Address: sbullride@cs.com Message: I'm back First i just want to thank all the guys giving the advice. Training is coming along great! Thanks for all the help. Now down to business. I have finally found pigeons. As many as I can handle. Now I need to know how often I should take my pup out to the field. Should I work her every day for a few minutes or should I work her every other day? Thanks Kelly

Subject: Re: Training intervals From: Hombre To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:10:13 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: I don't know how old your dog/pup is so this has to be general info. The first order is to not overdo your training, the younger the pup the shorter the sessions. When you are in the running stages, where you are building range, etc., every other day is enough unless your sessions are short. For any age let your guide be to never have the pup/dog train until it wants to quit, always stop way short of that while they want more, this keeps up the enthusiasm and makes for a dog that will really go for it. During this summer heat any running should be done early morning or late evening and if it is the least warmed up put water on the dog to keep it cool. Evan in 100 degree heat a dog will get out and run good for a bit if it has been well wet down, but the time has to be kept very short. Fill us in on your dog, age, breed and what you have done with it so far for better advice. Hombre

Subject: Training intervals From: Kelly To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:20:50 (PDT) Email Address: sbullride@cs.com Message: I'm back First i just want to thank all the guys giving the advice. Training is coming along great! Thanks for all the help. Now down to business. I have finally found pigeons. As many as I can handle. Now I need to know how often I should take my pup out to the field. Should I work her every day for a few minutes or should I work her every other day? Thanks Kelly

Subject: Hello From: Eric S. To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 20:32:16 (PDT) Email Address: iammykidsdad@uswest.net Message: I just wanted to introduce myself, my name is Eric and I am a professional trainer in Omaha, Ne. I use the 3 year old method. People bring me their stubborn, hard to train dogs, I lock them in a room with my 3 year old son for a half hour, and they come out like soft clay, ready to be molded into a field champion...ha ha. Actually, I'm just a regular Joe Six Pack in Omaha with my first hunting dog, an 11 week old Weimaraner. We have two other dogs, a Chihuahua and a pound mutt. I've been absorbing archived info for a few days now, and there's so much my head hurts, but I'm learning a ton. Keep up the good work and I'll be back at least once a day, maybe more. Heck, I'll probably ask so many questions you'll train your dogs to point me to wing and shot. :)

Subject: Re: Hello From: Geo To: Eric S. Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:32:13 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: I also am fairly new to the forum Eric .... You will gain alot from the interaction with the people here ... They have great advice for novices like us ... I get to Omaha now and then on business maybe we will meet someday ..

Subject: Re: Hello From: jeff To: Eric S. Date Posted: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 23:08:27 (PDT) Email Address: luckeyjeff@hotmail.com Message: good to hear from another weimaraner owner...mine is now 9 months old and lots of fun..he is going thru his 'terrible twos' similar to a kid. Good luck with your dog and if you want to share any tips or hints please feel free.

Subject: Re: Hello From: Sam M. To: Eric S. Date Posted: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 21:36:07 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Eric, Welcome on board and this is the place for bird dog training interactions. Many people from various backgrounds and training ideas contributes to this Forum and the information at times can be confusing and contradictory but use what works for you and your bird dog. I agree the Archives are full of usefull information and that can be the best place to begin. I like your '3 year old method', heck my Pointer, Temis, was raised by my two kids. Any reports on pheasant populations in Ne? Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Hello From: Eric S. To: Sam M. Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 21:46:30 (PDT) Email Address: iammykidsdad@uswest.net Message: I'm not positive, but I seem to recall a newspaper article saying that the unusually warm winter we had last year ( I was deer hunting in a t-shirt, in late November..) would mean a good pheasant population. Check www.ngpc.state.ne.us for more info. I think you have that link on this site.

Subject: Re: Hello From: Mike Grandick To: Sam M. Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:27:52 (PDT) Email Address: mgrandick@prodigy.net Message: Welcome Eric, I live right across the river from you in Iowa less than fifteen minutes from Omaha. I run two vizslas that I've trained using many of the techniques in this forum. I hunt mostly quail with the occasional pheasant showing up. This is a great place to ask questions and learn a variety of dog 'stuff' Mike G

Subject: Bird Dogs and Falconary From: Sam M. To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:56:00 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: To All, Henri Desmonts of France contributes an interesting training article regarding bird dogs and falcons. Henri also provides an insight into European field trials and bird dog training. I hope you enjoy these articles as I did. Sam M.

Subject: Re: Bird Dogs and Falconary From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 21:50:22 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Interesting piece Sam. Don't know what to make of it yet, but interesting. I am going to read it again in a few days. I had never heard of using dogs with falconry, but sure makes sense. Interesting way the guy thinks about dogs. Hombre

Subject: Re: Bird Dogs and Falconary From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 09:18:09 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Henri is unlike most falconars in that he also trains and competes his bird dogs in field trials. I've taken falconars pheasant hunting but it was difficult for their longwings to harvest wild pheasants, mostly because the falcons were inexperinced and did not recognized that a bird dog was on point (birds). Also, they were not high enough before the pheasants flushed. Unlike having a brace of dogs working a field the falcons were worked singly. However, it was alot of fun watching birds of prey do their magic. Sam M.

Subject: Re: Bird Dogs and Falconary From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:53:47 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: I bet it was. I would like to join in on that sometime, it would be something to watch. Won't be too long until phesant season again now. I am going to make dove openers at Brawley again and check out the phesants around Calexico at the same time. Hombre

Subject: Re: Bird Dogs and Falconary From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 11:33:59 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: I've been asked by some falconars to join them perhaps because my Pointers are experienced bird dogs. For wild pheasants in Southern California, many wait until Jan-Feb, the temp is more appropriate for longwings. It's interesting that many falconars use hybrid falcons. If you wish, I'll send some falconars your way. I just talked with a hunting buddy of mine and it seems we'll make the Yuma trip. I haven't been there in several years and my son is old enough now to take along so it should be fun. It's been many years since I've made the dove opener in the Valley. The pheasants in the 'Valley' are far and inbetween and one needs a bird dog to detect any pheasants. I know you are aware, but just a word of caution for those first timers who decide to bring their dogs into the desert. Currently, tempertures in the Southwest (desert) are extremely hot and heat related problems can come on quickly. Please check the First Aid/Health web page for links to information on these issues. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Bird Dogs and Falconary From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:21:22 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Sam, I have flushed/or/seen phesants in asparagas fields and along drainage ditches without dogs in the general Salton Sea area. However in these last ten years not nearly so many. The closer to the Mexican border the more phesant I see, and when I see one crossing a road or in the open I figure there are about fifty more in the immediate area as they stay relatively close to each other. Thre are also phesants in Wister that can be hunted but it would be extremely difficult hunting at the best. And yes, it is way too hot to be working dogs right now and will be until on into November. I work mine now from sunup until about 9, it is just too hot for them. On some days it cools down enough by 5:30 so that I can do a bit with them. The water misters run most of the day in the kennels and I have some of those plastic mixing trays for concrete in the kennels with water in them for the dogs to get in. The pups love it, have to refill theirs twice a day. There are some falconers around here, I have seen them flying their birds on ducks in season in some of the ponds. The guy at the feed store where I get my feed sells pigeons to them. I may look into teaming up with some. Hombre

Subject: GSP & QUAIL From: AER To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 09:23:18 (PDT) Email Address: ARUD@AOL.COMM Message: I HAVE A 6 MO OLD GSP AND AM STARTING HIM ON BW QUAIL. I HAVE SEVERAL ACHERS AND HAVE BUILT A RECAL PEN AND HAVE PURCHASED 14 QUAIL. SOME ARE VERY STRONG FLYERS BUT SOME ARE NOT. YESTERDAY MY GSP POINTED A QUAIL THAT WAS IN SOME TALL GRASS. HE HELD HIS POINT FOR SOME TIME. WHEN I WALKED UP TO JUMP THE QUAIL IT RAN AND MY DOG POINTED IT AGAIN. THE NEXT TIME I WENT TO THE QUAIL IT TRIED TO FLY AND GOT CAUGHT IN THE TALL GRASS. MY GSP CAUGHT IT AND IT DIED. HOW DO I KEEP MY GSP FROM CATCHING THE QUAIL AND HAVE I CAUSED ANY IRREVERSABLE DAMAGE ? THIS ONLY HAPPENED ONCE. MY DOG SEEMS TO BE POINTING BY SCENT BECAUSE I KNOW HE CANNOT SEE THEM.

Subject: Re: GSP & QUAIL From: Bob K To: AER Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:05:05 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: I doubt the scenting conditions are too great based on the Texas posting below. Give these birds a chance to develop wing strength by flying 1/2 them every day w/o any dog pressure for 2-3 weeks. You didn't hurt your pup any having it pick up a cripple like that. You might consider picking up a few more birds, 14 won't last long unless you're real careful and lucky both. Godd training. Bob K p.s. CAPS are considered shouting.

Subject: Re: GSP & QUAIL From: Hombre To: Bob K Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:50:50 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: I totally agree with Bob. Those quail need to get wild and tough before your dog starts on them. Put out half and make them fly at least once each time, sans dog. (The waiting two or three weeks is the killer hard part of that) Hombre

Subject: Another Puppy From: Brian To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 07:38:10 (PDT) Email Address: flyfisher@bambooflyrods.com Message: When we lost our Vizsla at the end of Februrary we put a deposit on another litter due in June before we got our Pudelpointer. Now, the Vizsla pup is 8 weeks old and ready to go home. I thought we wouldn't do it but we are. We'll have a 6 1/2 month Pudelpointer and an 8 week Vizsla and an 11 year old beagle/dachshund mix. What a handful this is going to be. Other than walking the two pups separately (more for the little one to gain confidence) and training them separate, any suggestions? My last Vizsla was so attached to the beagle/dachshund that she would do nothing in the field, just walk at my feet.

Subject: Re: Another Puppy From: Hombre To: Brian Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:19:20 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: First off, have fun. You may have to seperate the two pups for a while as the six month old will probably play too rough with the little one at first. That is a maybe, not a for sure. Later on they should be OK togather though. Your youngest pup will learn some things from the older one and make it easier for you, and haveing two dogs will take the pressure off of the one, there is a terrible tendency to overtrain when one has only one pup to work with. Have fun with them Hombre

Subject: Read Magic Man From: Torkel To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:15:07 (PDT) Email Address: torkel@informreklambyra.se Message: Hi, I just read the Magic Man article. One of the most illuminating pieces I've read on bird dog training, ever! Especially his 'models' for why the dog is acting as it is. (Some of his recommendations are not valid over here, since we let the dog flush on command and since we often want it to lay down when the bird is up.) Great! Torkel

Subject: Re: Read Magic Man From: Hombre To: Torkel Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:45:51 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Torkel, you put a smile on my face, it is especially refreshing to be seeing you advocate Bill Gibbons. I agree, it is a very informative well written article that has an eye opener way of putting things into perspective making for great dog training. What I like best about it is the easy going gentle manner of dog training and showing that many commands can be done without, that it is usually better to not talk and let the dog learn and work. Hombre

Subject: Re: Read Magic Man From: Geo To: Torkel Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 07:00:55 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: I agree ... Its was a great article especially understanding the psycology of the bird dog ... His explaination about why a dog points makes it much easier for new owners like me to understand the purpose of pointing ... Hope we see more like these articles soon .. Thanks SAM

Subject: Re: Read Magic Man From: Sam M. To: Geo Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 20:39:38 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: I first met Bill West more than a decade ago at a training seminar put on by my good friend, the late Wally Wallace of Ramona Kennels (Wally bred the National Champion Quillian's Rising Star). After hearing and watching Bill, I realized his soft and gentle training methods developed class bird dogs. His methods made sense and I immediately became his student. I was fortunate, as Bill took a liking to me and we developed a close friendship that continues today. The following year, I met Bill Gibbons who came to help with the annual seminars. Bill Gibbons in his own right is an exceptional trainer and speaks highly of him to give credit to Bill West. The impetus for the development of UplandBirdDog.com was to promote Bill's training methods. My posts reflect what I have learned of Bill West's training methods, thus far. Unfortunately, many of Bill's training ideas and methods (especially how to stand a dog) are best learned first hand. His training seminars are less frequent now, but if you have to fly to get there, I highly suggest you attend. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Read Magic Man From: Geo To: Sam M. Date Posted: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 11:46:24 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: Well I feel fortunate to have run across your site ... It helps the novice like me immensly ... Thanks

Subject: Lou Gleber update From: Sam M. To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:25:27 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: To All, I just finished talking by phone with Lou Gleber, who is now in his training camp in Arnett, OK. He mentioned seeing alot of games birds, especially bobwhites and turkeys. Lou is well and busy with dog training. He brought his computer to camp hoping to get on-line but unfortunatly this will not occur. He mentioned, 'He missed the interactions on the Training Forum.' Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Lou Gleber update From: Nick M. To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:13:08 (PDT) Email Address: nmoelders@mediaone.net Message: Hi Sam, thanks for giving the update on Lou. If you happen to talk to Lou again, please give Linda and him my best regards. I am in Boston right now, but so far I did not get a chance to do some bird training with my dog. Thanks and best regards, Nick M.

Subject: Re: Lou Gleber update From: Sam M. To: Nick M. Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 20:45:45 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Hi Nick, Good to see your post! Interestingly, Lou mentioned your name and thought your vizsla is a nice bird dog. I'll definitely say hi to Lou and Linda for you. Take care, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Lou Gleber update From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 06:37:03 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Thanks for the update Sam. Been wondering about Lou Hombre

Subject: Learning - Wild Birds From: Scott To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 09:12:00 (PDT) Email Address: Spetty@lendleaserei.com Message: I took my 17 month Vizsla bitch this weekend to my lease. She has never seen or worked wild quail so I was interested is seeing what she could do. She is great on pigeons out of launchers but had no idea what the quail were for. I put her on 5 wild coveys in one hours time by driving until we saw birds then putting her down. She busted every covey without even going on point. It was like she didn't realize that these birds were game birds. They were busting like bees within 5-10 feet of her and she didn't even turn her head to view the flushes or the noise. In her defense it was very hot (near 100) dry and very windy, but since I got her so close and she never even gave the slightest indication that she had hit scent what do I do? Have I over trained her on pigeons and she thinks they are only game or will she learn once I'm able to shoot a few quail that they are the game birds?

Subject: Re: Learning - Wild Birds From: Hombre To: Scott Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:22:26 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Some years back I had a GSP that did the same thing, he was trained on pigeon and then exclusively on pheasants. The breeder I acquired him from as a started dog was into field trialing in the So Cal GSP club at that time and they used pheasants in their trials. The dog considered quail (my favorite thing to hunt) to be trash birds. It tooks shooting some of them for him and picking them up and tossing them for him to retrieve to get him going on them. And my dog was a number one dog from trial stock on both sides with his sire being national champ. He did not evan want to retrieve them at first. Were I you, I would not run him on them anymore until you can shoot them, it would just be making him evan more adverse to those pesky quail....... like it did mine when I ran him in a quail galore area several trying to train him on them, and like you are now, it was not season so I could not shoot either. When it came quail season I shot some for him and he did not evan want to retrieve them, did not like them in his mouth. If your hunting is for Bob white quail, those can be purchased and used to train with (or they can here). That would probably get him interested in them. Hold one by the legs close to him while he is tied and let it flap it's wings and tease him with it and he will hunti g when planted. Earlier this year I ran a pup in a trial that had not been finished with his training, he had only been trained on pigeons and planted bobwhite. The trial was on bobwhites and in the middle of a brace he ran right through a covey of valley quail, which are like gambels except the top notch is turned backwards from a gambel. He pointed a planted bob about thirty yards on past. Really surprised me that he almost completely ignored the valleys which were coming up all around him as he passed through them. He stopped and gazed at a couple taking off about five foot from him for a scant second then went on with his hunting. And he took third place derby in that trial. Some dogs need an introduction to get them going on wild birds. Hombre

Subject: Re: Learning - Wild Birds From: Bob K To: Scott Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 16:16:36 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Where's this dog been for the last year that she's never been in birds before? Is she from hunting stock? Too many Vizslas and weims aren't. Sam's right about the conditions not being the best, but she should show more interest even if you're taxiing her from covey to covey.

Subject: Re: Learning - Wild Birds From: Scott To: Bob K Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 09:54:21 (PDT) Email Address: Spetty@lendleaserei.com Message: Hombre thanks for your insight, I was hoping someone with more experience has been down this road before and I appreciate your thoughts and will take your advice. I know she will be a good bird dog but its a little frustrating right now because she is really good on pigeons. I was also thinking that she needed to see a few shot before she figured out they are game birds. Bob, I got this V bitch when she was 9 months old in November 1999 and she was very very timid. When I got her she had been with three different owners within a two week time period and also spent over 14 hours in the airport crate before reaching her new home. So to say the least she was very skittish! Her personality is that of a beta dog as she is still submissive. From the time I got her until she turned 1 year old she only happy timed (Delmar Smith) I introduced her to pigeons once she reached one year old and we have been training weekly ever since. It took her a couple of months to become bold around birds, which she is around pigeons. Here in Texas if you want to train with wild birds out of season you have to have a game permit, sign, and band all you birds. So we haven't done that since I do not own any land here. I just got permission from a land owner to train my dog on his land and that's what we have been doing using pigeons. She is staunch on point, allows me to flush, steady to wing, but will break on the first shot, and retrieves well from land or water. She is still a soft dog and will shut down if pressured, so I thought I would just allow her to have her head her first hunting season, and then next summer completely break her. She does come from hunting stock on both sides. I was attempting to see how she would react on wild birds and found out. If I would have speeded up the process of putting her on birds before she became bold, gun conditioned, and was ape crazy for pigeons I feel for sure I would have taken out her natural desire and sprit, so I deceided to just take it at HER pace and have a good dog for years to come rather than run the risk of rushing her and ruining a decent dog. So am I wrong to proceed slowly or what can I do to improve? Thanks for your time and I appreciate all you help!

Subject: Re: Learning - Wild Birds From: Bob K To: Scott Date Posted: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 11:30:55 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Scott With that background, I've got to say you're handling this dog just right. It's a shame your first hunting dog is such a project, tho. You're going to put twice the effort into that dog that any EP pointer owner in Texas will in his dog and have less to show for it. I'm not being critical. I've taken on similar 'projects' myself. Good luck. Bob K

Subject: Re: Learning - Wild Birds From: Sam M. To: Scott Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 10:52:04 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: The high temp and windy conditions did not help your dog, however, I'm a little concern that she did not noticed the birds flushing. Did she see them? Otherwise, keep taking her out where she will find wild birds. This time release her some distance from the covey and allow her to work the birds on her own. Don't try to give to many commands but let her discover the birds and learn from her experiences. Also, birds in launchers is not the best training tool for teaching a bird dog to handle birds even pigeons. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Labradors From: Shane Casey To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:06:07 (PDT) Email Address: Shane@telepath.com Message: Is it true that white Labradors will only Retrieve and not flush i am new at this and i need lots of info thanks

Subject: Re: Labradors From: Sam M. To: Shane Casey Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 10:57:45 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Although your lab may seem white it is called a 'Yellow' lab. Many people consider Labs to be very versatile and can be trained and are used in many different situations including flushing, pointing and retreiving. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Labradors From: Hombre To: Shane Casey Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 07:08:06 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Shane, no that is not true. Try the book by Bill Tarrant, 'Hey Pup, Fetch It Up' or 'Training your Retriever' by James Lamb Free. There is an abundance of info in them. The former is more informative in what you are asking. Also were I you I would look into some of the Lab clubs in your area. Hombre

Subject: Range - Wild Birds From: Geo To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 10:03:06 (PDT) Email Address: geocisme@aol.com Message: I am new to hunting behind a GSP, have always hunted behind labs that my dad and uncles trained (not very good). I would consider myself a rookie at knowledge of how far out is too far when hunting and now am even more confused after reading some of the post about dogs being 250+ yards out in front!! I was given a german shorthair that has been very well trained on bobwhites. But, when I brought him out to SD, he went crazy on the wild birds and would get way out in front of us, or what I thought was way out in front (250+ yards). He almost to me seemed to be pushing the pheasants and they would end up flushing way out in front. My family is telling me to get a training collar to keep him closer and I just don't know. I will say he did have some awesome points and we did get some birds!! In his defense. He did seem sometimes to be pointing the bird that wasnt their either, and I don't think it was old sent, I think the bird was running, because he would do this many times before the bird would be their. He just seems confused on the wild bird. Seems to used to the tight holding bobwhites. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please email and/or post a reply. Thanks, Signed TOTALLY CONFUSED

Subject: Re: Range - Wild Birds From: Sam M. To: Geo Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:55:27 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Range is relative. A bird dog out 250 yards in wide open CRP grounds is OK but in thick tall growth then its too far. Many first time pointing dog owners are concerned about range and think their dogs are out too far especially when its putting up birds. If your dog is finding pheasants and you're able to shot them over its points then it's doing its job. With continued exposure to wild pheasants, your GSP will improve and trill you with outstanding stands on birds. As for pointing where birds were, allow him to determine when to point and when to move on. Don't command him to 'whoa' when he is making game or when he points. Many times the dog will realized it made a mistake after pointing and move on. I believe a bird dog that is bold and fast is best for pheasants. For pictures of bird dogs on wild pheasants see the Upland Birds web page. Also, read the stratagies for hunting pheasants with pointing dogs. I agree having two GEOs can be a problem. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Range - Wild Birds From: Hombre To: Geo Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 07:16:30 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Geo, sounds to me like your dog is doing fine, just needs more time to learn how to handle them. Sounds to me like your worst problem is your dad and uncles being used to hunting behind flushing dog, which of course have to be in shotgun range for you. In that you only get birds that have held tight until the dog flushes them, versus your pointer going out front, stopping some and bringing them to point. The same amount of birds are out front that would be running ahead otherwise but never seen due to the labs not ranging out far enough to put them up. The hardest running birds that you would never have a chance of seeing with your labs are the ones flushing wild ahead of your pointing dog. That is the way I see it Hombre

Subject: Re: Range - Wild Birds From: Geo To: Geo Date Posted: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:14:11 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: What are the chances of two GEO'S this could get confusing

Subject: separation? From: kyle To: new pups Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 19:27:59 (PDT) Email Address: heybig@hotmail.com Message: my roommate and i just picked up a couple pups. they arent registered or anything, but both parents used to hunt. They are half GSP half lab, and they seem to have some hunting instinct, however my pup will tear around with his brother carrying everything he can find, but when i come out to play, his brother fetches everything and he just sits at my feet and watches. theyre only 10 weeks old am i expecting too much or do we need to separate them? in case you cant tell this is my first dog.

Subject: Re: separation? From: Hombre To: kyle Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 22:08:45 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Dogs of the same litter vary. I have a litter that are 10 weeks old now, almost 11 weeks. I thought I would be teaching retrieve to them a week earlier but they are just now good and ready. Some retireve like champs, making thirty yard retrieves and some do not want to make a 12 foot retrieve yet, just a difference in pups. But all will be retrieving well in another two weeks. Just give him time. It may help to tease him with the dummy some, slamming it on the ground, flipping it around enticingly by the cord on it and evan slapping him with it (gently), that will make him start biting at it and trying to catch it, that is the time to toss it a little ways then and let him get it and play with it. Hombre

Subject: Re: separation? From: Geo To: Hombre Date Posted: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:51:44 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: I agree with what Hombre stated ..just tease the pup with it .. and toss it .. then call back with great praise .. and you will have your hands full with play retrieve till it drives you nuts !!!! but thats what its all about fun fun fun .

Subject: Teaching 'heel' From: Geo To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 12:10:37 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: Hi guys .... I am about ready to teach my 7 month old GSP 'heel'. I have read Delmar Smiths method and others using my pinch collar. Are there any pointers ( no pun intended ) that you give from personal experiences .. She is not a real soft dog and takes commands well .. but bieng so active at his age I can see some patience will be needed .. any other suggestions ? She has been trained 'whoa' in a lot of yard work and come when called in yard and field. I know it seems a little early to be whoa broke but we had time and she learned very quicky through reptition. Now maybe ready to tackle 'heel'

Subject: Re: Teaching 'heel' From: Vic S. To: Geo Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 13:23:03 (PDT) Email Address: vrstull@aol.com Message: What has worked well for me because I'm not a prof'l trainer and therefore spend a lot of nontraining time with my dogs is this: Every time I have them come to me I give a 'heel' command and place them where I want them, with me, on my left side. I do this EVERY time. When I'm in the field, I do the same thing. When I'm getting ready to feed them I do the same thing. In general then, every opportunity I would do it. It really doesn't take that long. I never engaged in any formal 'heel' training as such. Just made them heel whenever I thought it appropriate. Both my dogs know and understand the command very well now and it was a very painless, easy experience for all of us. Others may have faster ways of doing it but this sure worked well for me. Good luck. Vic Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: Teaching 'heel' From: Mike Grandick To: Vic S. Date Posted: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 08:02:45 (PDT) Email Address: mgrandick@prodigy.net Message: I a little confused (my normal state) I've been putting off teaching 'heel' until my pup has had a full season to hunt an establish his range. I've gotten the opinion that teaching 'heel' too soon will cut down on Pup's range and possibly make a 'boot hugger' out of him. I have two Vizslas and the older one heels great but was taught heel at 15 months. The pup (12 months)I just let explore and do his thing an only call him back to keep him in sight. Any feelings on this guys?

Subject: Re: Teaching 'heel' From: Blake B. To: Mike Grandick Date Posted: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 08:24:39 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Mike: I would say you are right on. If a dog has shown that it hunts hard, at a range the owner is happy with, and has learned to find birds, point, etc,. there is nothing wrong with beginning yard work around 7-10 months old. More than anything, you have to consider the individual dog, and what he is ready to handle, without taking much out of him.

Subject: Re: Teaching 'heel' From: Geo To: All Date Posted: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:39:00 (PDT) Email Address: yellofin@hotmail.com Message: Mike: I would also agree it is a very individual decision.. and the points you make are right on. I guess it all depends on the pup and how far they have progressed so far .. you hear so much about what time to do what and what should be done by when it gets very confusing. I have taken the belief that the timetable I am going to use will be mine and my pups, while listening to others like all the great opinions here to guide me. Some say to start whoa training early others say shouldnt be whoa broke until over a year old. Who is right ? I dont know and it really doesnt matter as long as the pup isnt pressured too fast or lag behind.. I believe its based on the individual pup and what they excel at no matter the age .. yes somethings need to be done in order.. but where one dog may excel in one area another may need additional work .. I.E. we have the retrieve to hand pretty much done.. my pup wasnt pressured into it .. cause she has loved to retrieve since we started play retrieve in the huose this winter.. and now excels at it. Not quite broke but working on it .. Heel I do believe isnt the most important command but it certainly is crucial when controlling your dog on the hunt. When is the right time ? I am not sure thats why I posed the question. Any other thoughts on the subject of heel and how to train ?

Subject: Re: Teaching 'heel' From: Brian To: Geo Date Posted: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 10:17:56 (PDT) Email Address: flyfisher@bambooflyrods.com Message: If you're happy with your pups range and you begin yard work, is it possible this will actually shorten range?

Subject: Re: Teaching 'heel' From: Hombre To: Brian Date Posted: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 13:11:08 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: I kinda look at heel as if there are two versions of it, both very easy to teach. One is where the dog walks alongside leash or no leash with his nose about evan wi