Subject: Sight Hunting From: Tom W To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 15:36:39 (PDT) Email Address: topgun@batnet.com Message: I've got a three year old male Brittany from field trial stock.I beleave he's sight hunting.Latley I've been putting hobled pigons inside shrubery and work him downwind of the birds.The idea is to make it easy for now for him to make game.Once he strikes sent he turns in and points and is steady. Do you have any recomendations for geting my dog to hunt more with his nose. Thanks. Tom

Subject: Re: Sight Hunting From: Tom W To: Tom W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:20:20 (PDT) Email Address: topgun@batnet.com Message: Sorry guys for not giving you enough information on my first post.I'll try to answer all your questions now.I hobbel the pigons by crossing there wings behind there back then I secure them together with a close line clip. I've hunted the dog one season.My training sessions last about 30 to 40 min. not counting set up time.I've just started training once again.He hadn't receved real training for about a year.He's birdy. He's been force trained to retrive.I've taught him using help from Dobbs training center.I've followed the advice on there training Videos and we've had some private lessons with Jim.Once my dog is on point I walk up beside him I softly say 'good boy' while I'm neeling or stooping beside him. Most of the time I stroke up his tail.I've heard from a few trainers this stroking dosn't style up any dogs, but I do it any way.I figure I not hurting the dogs style? I guess I spend about 90 sec. doing that then I snap on a lead and take the dog away.I release him after about 30 ft.Then we hunt toward the next plant.I started out using a remote bird launcher but he was runing past about half the birds I planted in the launcher. I use the Inotech launcher.He keeps his mouth open while hunting even on point.I'm hoping to get him to rely on his sence of smell more.I'm making it easier for the dog at this time just to get him used to finding game with his nose.I'll increase the dificulty later.It's discouraging to have the dog run through the sent cone without pointing.I think sometimes he's just enjoying the running and not paying attention to his nose.He points upon striking sent but just as dependably as I want. Hope this helps. Sorry my writing is not a well organised as I'd like eather. Tom

Subject: Re: Sight Hunting From: Dave C To: Tom W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 18:35:51 (PDT) Email Address: david@crusoe.net Message: Tom, I assume your goal is to make the dog steady to wing and shot. It is difficult to accomplish this without an assistant. When you plant your hobbled pigeon, plant your release trap 5-10 yards up wind of the hobbled bird. Once the dog points walk up along side him get hold of the check cord, say nothing at all, Talking has a tendency to break the concentration & confuse the dog leading to less intense points. Have someone walk out in front and flush the bird from the trap. Leave the hobbled bird. Pick the dog up and go to your next plant. Scenting is a mysterious thing, especially when the dog is blowing out from the heat. Try to do your training early or late in the day when it is a little cooler. If the dogs style on point is ok I wouldn't touch his tail, let him concentrate on the bird. When the dog points and nothing is flushed there is no reward, no excitement, he's not 100% sure there was a bird, he didn't see it fly. Keep it exciting don't overdue and he will hunt more eagerly.

Subject: Re: Sight Hunting From: Tom W To: Dave C Date Posted: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 11:05:34 (PDT) Email Address: topgun@batnet.com Message: Tom, I assume your goal is to make the dog steady to wing and shot. It is difficult to accomplish this without an assistant. When you plant your hobbled pigeon, plant your release trap 5-10 yards up wind of the hobbled bird. Once the dog points walk up along side him get hold of the check cord, say nothing at all, Talking has a tendency to break the concentration & confuse the dog leading to less intense points. Have someone walk out in front and flush the bird from the trap. Leave the hobbled bird. Pick the dog up and go to your next plant. Scenting is a mysterious thing, especially when the dog is blowing out from the heat. Try to do your training early or late in the day when it is a little cooler. If the dogs style on point is ok I wouldn't touch his tail, let him concentrate on the bird. When the dog points and nothing is flushed there is no reward, no excitement, he's not 100% sure there was a bird, he didn't see it fly. Keep it exciting don't overdue and he will hunt more eagerly. --- Dave, Thanks for taking the time to give me your advice on training.I think using the pigon catapult behind the hobbeled bird is a real good idea.Unfortunatly I have to somewhat hobble the bird in the catapult also.I tie cord to there legs and run a 6 ft. cord from there feet to a 2ft. section of garden hose.I live in a conduminium with a small balcony. My neighbors wouln't apprecate the pigons hainging around and pooping on there balconys.So I hobble the pigons when I'd much prefer to let them fly away and back to the coop aventualy.This morning ( I always train in the early morning) I planted one of my pigons in the catapult my dog went on point about three feet away from the bird.I walked in from the oposite direction acted like I was kicking the bird out,hit the release button,it kicked out the bird .I shot of a round from my starting pistol the dog stayed steady.He's been holding real good to wing and shot latley.I admit at the end od last hunting season he was breaking at the flush.My little bit of training has him steady again.The deal I'm working on is geting him to rely on his nose.Have you ever heard of nasal decongestants for dogs? This week I've trained him five days in a row.Too much? Next week I'm planing to train him every outher day. I said in my last post that My dog Willie has hunted only one season that was incorect he's hunted most of two seasons and has had about sixty birds shot over him.Not counting training birds. Thanks again Dave. Tom

Subject: Re: Sight Hunting From: Dave C To: Tom W Date Posted: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 15:56:45 (PDT) Email Address: david@crusoe.net Message: Tom, I have found in the evening about 1 1/2 hours before it gets dark the pigeons are very anxious to get back into the coop, and they won't hang around outside. When released in the morning they'll hang around, peck gravel etc., sometimes all day. I don't know of any nasal decongestants for dogs, perhaps your vet may. Do you feel he has this scenting problem all the time, in the winter, when you hunt him etc.? A point is nothing more than a pause before a pounce. If a dog is worked on pen birds often, training, hunting, etc. they quickly learn they can get very close and some will even try to see the birds, leading the trainer to believe something is wrong with the dogs scenting ability. They smell the bird and know it is there, however, they want to see how close they can get. This is why wild bird exposure is so important, or when training try to simulate the wild bird as closely as possible. Example when using the release trap as soon as you see the dog make game(scents the bird) release it. Do not wait for the dog to point. This may take several lessons, but your pigeons come back so nothing is lost. This will teach the dog to point a good distance from its game which is necessary for wild birds. Some trainers use the hobbled pigeon, so the pigeon can flush on its own. You need a large open field to do this. I think training every other day is better and changing the location will help keep it exciting. Always end each session on a positive note. Good Luck & Good Training, Dave

Subject: Re: Sight Hunting From: Hombre To: Dave C Date Posted: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 17:00:06 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: There are a few different approaches to a dog's pointing. One is the natural point in which a dog is worked on wild birds and the dog learns he cannot catch them after so many days of chasing them and begins going into a good point and holding it. Then this is einforced with the whoa in which the dog has been taught to not move a paw after the command. He then learns that finding a bird means whoa. Then there is the Delmar Smith method in which a dog is worked into a scent cone at a good distance, the dog whoad, bird flushed and shot, dog allowed to make the retrieve. This teaches the dog that the hot scent of a bird means whoa and he whoas and points on hitting scent, he is sure of his senses beause each time has produced a bird in which he is rewarded with. No dog is going to continue giving you a decent point and hold on a bird without the reward of getting the bird sometimes at least. My advise is get with someone to train with such as another accpmplished trainer helping him out and learning a bit. I do not know what the Dobbs method is, but if that is what you are using as you described, I will tell you for certain there are a lot better ways of training. Were you to go back into archive one and read the training methods in it and work you way on out it would be time well spent too. And on the dog retrieving thing, evan if you take a dead pigeon and toss it for him to retrieve as you fire he will have something. Or you can toss the 'hobbled' pigeon for him to retrieve. At any rate if he is not rewarded he will lose interest. Also on 'hobbeling' the bird, it is a very easy matter to cross the birds wings in back of it interlocking the joints so he cannot get them uncrossed. All ya need do then is uncross them and let them fly off at times. Under no circumstances should you have your dog walk away from a point. When it is neccessary for me to move a dog, other than having a dog relocate when I cannot find the bird he is always picked up and carried. A dog is not to move a paw once he has gone on point until the bird is at least flushed otherwise. Hombre

Subject: Re: Sight Hunting From: Blake B. To: Tom W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 07:46:16 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Like Dave said, we need more information. I am wondering though, what you are trying to accomplish. Did you just get this dog?? Has he been hunted?? Are you breaking him?? Are you still letting him just hold as long as possible and then chase?? Like Dave said, it is good for young dogs to use the same planting spot to some extent, but an older dog will figure the game out and stop using their nose. Again, like Dave said, if the dog is getting scent, turning to the scent, and pointing, unless he is on top of the bird and eyeballing it, he is either using his nose or pointing bushes. Let us know.

Subject: Re: Sight Hunting From: Dave C To: Tom W Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 19:14:07 (PDT) Email Address: david@crusoe.net Message: Tom, Need more info. What do you mean by hobbled? Are the birds free to flush on their own? How often are you doing this and how long are the sessions? What do you do after the dog points? You stated in you post 'Once he strikes sent he turns in and points and is steady' that sounds to me he is using his nose. If you are planting the birds in the same general area the dog is onto the game and will begin to point bush, he anticipates the bird and will point where he thinks it may be. I'm not sure if this is what you are referring to when you say sight hunting. Please provide more info.

Subject: Re: Sight Hunting From: Hombre To: Dave C Date Posted: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 08:56:10 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Very well said Dave, Two more question on top of those though...... Tom's term ''hid them in shrubbery'' leads me to think they may be in his back yard or other small area the dog has memorized... And Tom, why do you want it to be so easy for the dog to find the birds? Is this three year old new to birds? If so sounds like you now have him birdy though. Hombre

Subject: Summer Training From: Lou To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 02:33:18 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Well it's that time of year I'll be headed to Western Ok. for the summer Jul-Oct. I'll try to get set up out there with the computer. Just thought I'd let you'll know I'm not just not answering your questions. Have fun with your dogs and remember GOD loves us all! Lou

Subject: Re: Summer Training From: Maurice To: Lou Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 07:02:33 (PDT) Email Address: southerngundog@aol.com Message: Hey Lou, hope you have a good summer in oklahoma. I hope to visit Bill Gibbons camp in sept. If you are close by I would like to meet you. Let me know. Maurice

Subject: Whoa From: Brian To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:42:10 (PDT) Email Address: flyfisher@bambooflyrods.com Message: I've begun teaching whoa to my 5 month old Pudelpointer. Until now, all she's known is come, no, leave it and, somewhat, fetch and give. She's a very bold pup and goes absolutely nuts when she finds out there are pigeons around. I'm not sure if it's too early for this training but, based on her boldness, I think she can handle it. I'm pretty surprised at how quickly she's picking it up as I've only been at it once a day or so for about five days. I don't expect much because I'm not pushing her very hard. How far along, given her age, should I expect her to obey without question?

Subject: Re: Whoa From: Scott To: Brian Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 07:47:08 (PDT) Email Address: Spetty@lendleaserei.com Message: Brian, that's great your Pudelpointer is doing so well at that age, but I would personally hold off on Whoa until she is about one year old. I know its very hard to wait, but if you do you'll be rewarded several times over. Just try to remember that the pup is like a kid and let them grow up being a kid and not forcing them to obey every command when they are young (remember every time you put the bitch down she will learn something good or bad). At such a young age if might be counterproductive to teach this due to the fact that each time she doesn't lock up when you say whoa you will have to correct her. Just let her run and bump/chase for the first year and also learn to handle different cover types ('Happy timing' Delmar Smith book Best Way to Train your Gun Dog). I did this with my Vizsla (very soft) and when we started formal training at one year of age she picked it up very quickly and it didn't affect her range! Good Luck and remember to let your pup be a pup for the first year since ya'll will have several years to hunt and have fun!

Subject: Re: Whoa From: Blake B. To: Brian Date Posted: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:43:25 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Whoa is a precursor to breaking and is used in case of emergency. You say your dog is bold. Boldness and range are two issues. A dog can be bold and only range 30 yards. If the dog does not range well yet, then certainly do not put more obedience on her than you already have. Let her develop some range to go with her boldness. Whoa is easy to teach most dogs and doesn't take long. You have plenty of time.

Subject: FOOT PAD INJURY From: CHET 'BIRD DOG' GOOLY To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 09:53:22 (PDT) Email Address: mpalmit@juno.com Message: MY ENGLISH SETTER CAME UP LAME THE OTHER DAY. UPON INVESTIGATION I FOUND THAT A PORTION OF HIS PAD WAS SEPERATED FROM THE FOOT. IT IS STILL CONNECT BUT IS REAL LOOSE. IT IS REAL TENDER WHEN I TOUCH THE TISSUE UNDERNEATH. IS THEIR ANYTHING I CAN PUT ON SO I CAN CONTINUE TO TRAIN? SHOULD I TRIM OFF THE PART THAT IS LOOSE? ANY SUGGESTIONS.

Subject: Re: FOOT PAD INJURY From: Blake B. To: CHET 'BIRD DOG' GOOLY Date Posted: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:39:32 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Chet: If you blew out his pads, then use Hydrogen Peroxide and then Iodine Tincture or Betadine. Cut Heal for horses works well too. If the pad is split, then take him to the vet and have it stapled. It will heal way quicker this way. Whether you take him to the vet or let it heal, it will just take time, but he will lick it and it will heal in a week or so.

Subject: Re: FOOT PAD INJURY From: Hombre To: CHET 'BIRD DOG' GOOLY Date Posted: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:59:38 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Your dog ran to an excess on gravel or rocks and is not used to it. When pads toughen up from running that seldom happens. Just allow him to lay around about a week, he will grow another one and be OK. Then take it easy until he gets toughened up. You arn't training every day are you? Every other day is often enough. Hombre

Subject: Re: FOOT PAD INJURY From: Chet bird dog Gooly To: Hombre Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 04:06:51 (PDT) Email Address: mpalmit@juno.com Message: THANKS GUYS. I HAVE BEEN ROADING HIM THE PAST FEW WEEKS AND MAYBE I DID TO MUCH TO QUICK. THANKS AGAIN. CHET

Subject: Ticks From: Vic S. To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 08:00:13 (PDT) Email Address: vrstull@aol.com Message: Think one or both of my dogs brought one or two home. If it were still only one or two I wouldn't be posting this question. But as some of you probably have experienced their ability to reproduce, and quickly, is prodigious. So, anyone have experience with ridding a yard of ticks? Problem is I have a huge area where I have allowed the dogs to roam. I've hit the obvious places with what I had available at the time (Diazinon) just as soon as I discovered the problem: kennel, areas where the dogs like to lay around, next to the house. One of my hunting partners is a vet and I got stuff to treat the dogs themselves. What else can I do? Vic Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: Ticks From: Bob K To: Vic S. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 08:22:47 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Vic Tics are real bad this year in VA. I pulled 16 off after running dogs yesterday. Frontline, which worked well on the dogs previously, seems slower to kill them too. I'm pulling live ones off - something that hadn't happened before. Bob L

Subject: Early Training From: David To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 07:55:38 (PDT) Email Address: dvandruff@cir-resource.com Message: I have an 18week old male Brittany, who is very bold and determined. We've been doing our fun timing now for several weeks with no traning whats so ever. As of this last monday, I started some basic traing (ie. sit, here and heel) in the yard. What are your feelings on training at this age.

Subject: Re: Early Training From: Hombre To: David Date Posted: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 10:02:50 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: David, sit is a very easy one to train, once they slightly have it they do not forget it, especially if a snack is involved. There are different thoughts on teaching sit to a pointing dog and a thread of posts on it. If you will click 'Message List' at the bottom of this screen and then click 'View all messages' and find it and read them. All trainers including myself advocate not teaching heel until the dog is finished being trained on birds, especially to heel off of a lead. Too much training too young will cause a dog to stop to get your approval before doing anything and make them stay too close, and take a lot of the intensity out of them. However, this is what some hunters want. Not me though, and it will make it almost impossible for the dog to compete in field trials as too much will be missing. For where I am at with a pup of similar age take a look at 'Pyramid Of Success' in this set of postings. Hombre

Subject: Re: Early Training From: Blake B. To: Hombre Date Posted: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:36:29 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: David: I would echo what Hombre said. Teaching obedience at this age is the very best way in the world for a dog to be under foot later in the field. Teaching sit at all is asking for the dog to sit on point later when it has any pressure put on it. Heel should be taught at something around 8-10 months, very gently, particularly with a Brit. You can always shorten a dog up later, but you will have a hard time if the dog has been taught to be under foot and has no independence. Why run the risk??

Subject: Fight prevention From: Hombre To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:37:15 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: I got a two year old bitch last month. She has settled in real well, is real birdy and loves to retrieve. I am having to work with her on basic commands again. When I first got her and as I placed her in a kennel I noticed her and another bitch (Spice) eyeball each other real bad going into fight posture, I was sure if I allowed them to they would fight right then and there. The new one is potentially a great bitch, actually sister to the first one, and first pick of the litter, sold and taken at six weeks. Just got her back after changing hands a few times. The one I have had all the time (Spice) remained too timid and soft up to almost two years to do anything with in the way of breaking or being sold. However, she is big running and very birdy. For the past six months I have used no corrections on her, gave her a lot of birds to chase for a while and took her in the house a lot with a lot of petting to help her get more sure of self. She has done very well, big improvement. Despite the time Spice has retained all training in her. She and another bitch I sold last year got into some awful fights and cost me some vet bills. Spice, evan though being soft in working with, does not back off from a fight. Weird. Anyway, they are kenneled in adjacent kennels. While having a dummy out working with the four month old they were all excited and wanting to join in..... which is usual. The two bitches got into a 'fence fight'....... each trying to rip at each other through the fence. The new bitch is also soft in working with, I have to be very real careful with her too. I am reluctant to use the extreme measures for fight prevention with them but do not want them to get at each other either. I will soon be taking the string out to work with and envision one or the other going back to the string and attacking the other. Yesterday while working with the young (one again tossing dummys for her), the new bitch got into another fence fight..... this time with a male. She just came out of heat two weeks ago, I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but am including it in info. Any ideas on the best way to handle this? Lou ...... If you have to, E-mail me the answer. Hombre

Subject: Re: Fight prevention From: Lou To: Hombre Date Posted: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:00:54 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Sent you an e-mail let me know if it don't make it through. Lou

Subject: Re: Fight prevention From: Bob K To: Lou Date Posted: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:00:59 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Hombre I haven't had that much experience with kennel mates fighting - actually none. Brittanys don't fight much compared to other breeds, I feel. I've never had a big kennel and always followed GBEvans advice of keeping a series of dogs couple of years apart. His concern was training ease rather than fighting, but a natural kennel queen or king makes sense. Sorry that can't offer more. Bob K

Subject: Going to Denver From: Sam M. To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 21:35:35 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: To all, I'm leaving early tomorrow morning for the mile high city, Denver. I'll be gone until the end of next week. Thanks to all for contributing on the Forum. With your help its become a resource for everyone wanting to improve their training methods and bird dogs. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: fearless GSP is scaring me From: jason To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 19:49:36 (PDT) Email Address: jason_2977 Message: I have a 2yr old male GSP who is totally fearless, I take him to the river with me and he's like a maniac jumping all over the slippery boulders, he thinks he can do anything and he is an incredible athlete, but he does crash a lot too, the thing is he never seems to feel any pain. I just want to know how much I should be worrying about him, any other dog I've ever had would be crippled by now. Help me please I'm stressed out !

Subject: Re: fearless GSP is scaring me From: Blake B. To: jason Date Posted: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 07:38:24 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Jason: Even a 2 year old, and especially a GSP will many times show no fear when it comes to water. I would find a pond or lake without boulders where you can swim your dog. I think a bunch of boulders is asking for the dog to break a leg, or worse.

Subject: Re: fearless GSP is scaring me From: Hombre To: Blake B. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:15:59 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: For sure Blake. A dog does not know to fear something until he is hurt. As for no fear of water, I taught a GSP to swim in a swimming pool as there was no place else for me at that time without a long travel. Then when duck season opened I took him with me shooting on the Colorado River. Going in wading and swimming in a protected place the GSP came on with me enjoying it. He was eight months old at that time. After a while he swam out into the currant. I called him back in and he came. Then a bit later he just took off out into the currant swimming way out, drifting way down of course. I was at the end of the road there and no way to go down, the brush and salt cedar so thick that a man could not make his way through, and the natural bank was about 8 feet vertical most of all I could see. I watched as he was swept away and saw him going around a bend about a half mile downstream, still out in the middle. All I could do was hope, but I thought he was lost. About 20 minutes later he broke through the brush at the camp, went right back in and swam out again. I allowed it with no problem as he showed he could take care of himself there. But we had no boulders or anything dangerous other than drowning or getting somewhere he could not come back from. He spent all day that day and the next doing that, he loved it. That stream, if it is as dangerous as it sounds, should be treated like a road way, and I do not allow my dogs into roads. A dog does not naturally fear a busy road or cars either. That is what portable kennels and stake out chains are for in some place like that. Hombre

Subject: Re: fearless GSP is scaring me From: Vic S. To: jason Date Posted: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:05:52 (PDT) Email Address: vrstull@aol.com Message: They can scare you. I think you just have to let them learn where their limits are, with this admonition: If you see the dog about to do something you know darn well is an invitation to disaster have it trained well enough to stop when you tell it to stop. Mine have scared me half to death a few times but they are seemingly oblivious. They are like a child. Comes a time when you have to begin to trust their judgment and ability. Vic S. Redlands, CA.

Subject: Blinking From: Kent Steelman To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 08:05:48 (PDT) Email Address: A1ADiver Message: My GSP seems to blink when she is put in front of birds. I have put her in front of pen raised/released birds and have seen her either turn her face from them or run once flushed. She has a natural instinct to hunt and point and will point just about any animal that moves. So I think her desire to hunt is good. But my suspision is the person I sent her to for training polishing, used a collar on her and zapped her one to many times. Reciently I have been using sented dummies in play/training with her and she is now more exicited with the dummies than with any other retrieving toy. Actually seems to enjoy and has an interest in smelling the bags... Now my next question is where do I go on from here. I am looking for any and all advice. Thanks Kent

Subject: Re: Blinking From: Hombre To: Kent Steelman Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 09:56:59 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre Message: Kent ..... You are on the right track, but I would leave the scent off of the dummies, that can cause chewing and hardmouth. I agree with you that she has had a hard hand from a ''trainer'', and probably while on birds. What you have to do now is go backwards. She has to learn that birds are fun and that she is not going to get punished for finding them. I would go back to pigeons and happy timing. Pull six or seven flight feathers out one wing of a pigeon, this will make the bird fly offsided. Do not take feathers from both wings or it will be back in balance and can fly better. (be in an open treeless area, as large as possible, as the bird is going to fly to the nearest tree of tall bush) and toss out the bird for her to chase. Before tossing it out hold it by it's feet and let it flap it's wings which usually excites the hell out of a dog. Wave it around making all kinds of noise like you are having the time of your life. As she takes interest wave it at her and jerk it away. When she is finally lunging at it toss it. Let it go and in an excited voice tell her to get it. It should be able to fly but will not be able to achieve much altitude. Allow her to do whatever with it, if she retrieves it to you praise her. If she plays with it and kills it, praise her. No corrections of any kind should be given. Keep this up for a few weeks. While doing this find another trainer or get someone that is good with their dog to help you. Also I would be demanding the return of my money and thinking of taking him to small claims for damages to the dog. Hombre

Subject: Re: Blinking From: Lou To: Hombre Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 17:05:00 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Hombre, I go along with the way you advise revamping the dog. But thats where it ends not knowing all the facts of who did what to the dog, I just can not advise some one to go to court!I don't condone a bad pro. by any means!!!! but to advise court action with out the facts NO NO NO

Subject: Re: Blinking From: Hombre To: Lou Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 17:50:09 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre Message: Maybe so Lou, I don't know the details. But I want it plain that there are trainers out there who can and will ruin a dog and they should not profit by it. A friend of mine wanted me to train his lab for retrieving but I had no space at the time so he placed him with another trainer. The dog was doing good until one day they had over trained and he refused to fetch. It would run out a bit and return. They 'burned' him each time they sent him out with an E collar, effectively teaching him to not go fetch. He heeled up to the trainer and refused to move. The dog refused to do anything for the trainer after that. He told me of some other tecqniques the trainer used on the dog and I sure would not have used them on any of mine. Mike saved his dog by happy timing it after he got it back. I would have gotten my money back on that one if it had of been my dog. You folks need to know every trainer out there is not qualified and to check them out. Hombre

Subject: Re: Blinking From: Lou To: Hombre Date Posted: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:54:26 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Yes I think people should check out any trainer and they should check the trainer to see what methods they use.I know one big time trainer who ruins as meny as he brakes you don't here about those. I have a Short Hair here now that was with another trainer for 8 months it blinked birds bad when they brought it to me she is doing well now but if I fail to get her all the way right should they sue me.If you just knew how many dogs come to a fulltime Pro with holes as big as Texas and supposedly nothing has been done to the dog you would not be so quick to say sue! Now everyone out there remember all it takes to be a pro trainer is take out an add and say you are, so please be carefull with your dog and your money. Check out the person you chose to train your animal!!!! Lou

Subject: Re: Blinking From: Hombre To: Lou Date Posted: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 16:02:00 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Gee, Lou. Now I think you know that no one should have any expectations when it comes to straightening out a messed up dog. It is seldom anything like easy and certainly no guarantees. But myself, I figure when a guy gets straight virgin material and messes it up, he is responsible for all damages. A guy hanging out his training shingle should have already made his learning mistakes on his own dogs. Got no business messing up others dogs. Hombre

Subject: Re: Blinking From: Kent To: Hombre Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 11:10:54 (PDT) Email Address: A1ADiver@mindspring.com Message: Hombre, Thanks for your input, will do... Kent

Subject: New Britt From: Doug To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:46:19 (PDT) Email Address: moosmug@yahoo.com Message: I recently got a 3 yr old Brittany. I saw him hunt and whoa on command. Now he won't whoa for me. He knows come and will obey in the yard but outside of the yard he ignores the command, How do I enforce it other than a check cord? As for whoa I am planning on just retraining him to whoa for me. Any advice?

Subject: Re: New Britt From: Hombre To: Doug Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:54:11 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Get hold of the trainer you bought him from and get them to work with you is my advice. You need to take a few lessons in handling your dog. We could tell you things we would do, but bottom line, evan myself if I acquired a three year old I would find out how it was handled and what training aids were used on it. And until then I would not put the dog in any situation that you need to give a command you cannot enforce, that teaches a dog it does not have to obey you. Hombre

Subject: Re: New Britt From: Lou To: Hombre Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:12:10 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Nothing but top shelf Hombre. If any thing else is done you will confuse the dog and make yourself angry.

Subject: Pyramid of Success From: Vic S. To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:30:48 (PDT) Email Address: vrstull@aol.com Message: I have always thought about presenting graphically a logical, proven way of approaching the training of a pointer/retriever dog such as a GSP, Vizla, or English Pointer. Not sure it is the most effective concept but I like and therefore borrowed coach John Wooden's 'Pyramid of Success,' or whatever he called it. At the broad bottom would be the basics or beginning aspects of a training regimen. At the top of the pyramid would be a 'finished' dog. I have my own routine and approach but I was hoping to get input from other readers of Sam's website. Briefly, where do you begin? Just as important, what do you want to complete before moving on? Do you focus on one thing at a time or do you feel it is o.k. to combine one or more lessons in a single activity? It seems that a lot of foundation has to be built before certain refinements are possible and I'm hoping to put them into some organized, visual context that might make it easier for people to grasp quickly a sound approach and plan to the training of their dog. This sound unrealistic or just plain too flaky? Vic Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: Pyramid of Success From: Lou To: Vic S. Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:28:47 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Vic, I don't think we have been blinking your question but to answer it all the way would take writing a book.I'll try to give a short shot answer. Yes there is a pyramid aproch to training a dog. The first year should be a year of exposure not a lot of formal training. In this 1st year the dog should learn it's name,come,whoa. The rest should be learning the world around it and the country it will hunt and the game it will hunt.After the first year I am a firm beleaver in teaching a dog one thing at a time with things being taught in a connecting order. The top of the pyramid is liken to the point of a pencile you must keep it sharp for the life of the animal.

Subject: Re: Pyramid of Success From: Hombre To: Lou Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 06:41:02 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre Message: I sure agree with Lou on the size a full answer would take. However there comes into play some other factors that just prevent a 'one shot this works for all approach.' Some of the things that come into play is how many dogs a person has he is working with, how the person wants the dog to wind up being, how versatile of a dog is wanted, whether or not it will be running in field trials, what it is being sold as or if it is going to be a personal hunting dog and companion. Then there is how much time can be devoted to one dog. Myself, depending on how many dogs I am working with and at what stages, if I have time a dog is worked on different things at the same time, as long as they do not conflict. Teaching a dog to come and to turn at the same time is one. They work well together. When in second stage of retrieving I add in a lot of other commands, one the dog is doing anyway. I try to have a dog doing something and then add the command. When the dog is going out well to retrieve and coming back, I start holding the dogs collar and after the toss and he is settled down and is intense on going for it I say WHOA, and say BACK as he is sent out, told FETCH as he picks up, PUP HERE PUP as he comes back, and GIVE as he turns loose of it or drops it. When it is put back in the kennel as it goes in I say KENNEL. None of these are given unless I know they are going to do them. But after enough repeats these empty commands will become commands. Incidentally this is where I am at with the just turned 16 week old pup I got last month, plus working her on the check cord practicing turns and come. She has been given some birds find and point/chase but no formal training on them at all, and retrieves dummys launched out of the launcher up to a hundred yards, which makes her broke to gunfire also. Though I give each of these 'commands', she will have to be worked individually on some of them to make them really stick later, such as the whoa command, taught at around six months. The dogs selected for trialing recieve very little training other than retrieving and come. No negative is used on them at all. But this is just the way I do it. Each person and trainer does it their own way, and I ought to add, that training HAS to be adapted to each dog, as they all have differences, evan out of the same litter. A method that works well on one dog may not work at all on his brother of sister. Hombre

Subject: Anyone in Michigan? From: Fix To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:28:57 (PDT) Email Address: fix@tir.com Message: I was just wondering if anyone that frequents this web site was from the Michigan area. The reason I'm asking is that I haven't found any clubs that people get together and train, hunt, trial ... Looking on the internet I see there are several clubs on other parts of the country, but around here I guess poeple keep more to themselves. I live between Detroit and Flint. Any help would be great. Thanks Dave Fix

Subject: Re: Anyone in Michigan? From: Bob K To: Fix Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:07:42 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Dave Michigan is crowded with hunting dog people and is blessed with great grounds. The Outdoors chat room has a Michigan state board as well as a one devoted to gun dogs. HAVHDA has a message board that's a good info source. Most AKC breed clubs have message boards. Use your search engine and to try any of these. Bob K

Subject: Re: Anyone in Michigan? From: Blake B. To: Fix Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:20:39 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Call your particlular breed national organization. For example, the German Shorthaired Pointer Club of America has a complete database of every club in the US. There are several in Michigan. Another idea is to join either your local chapter of QU or Pheasants Unlimited, or NSTRA. There are plenty of people to train with if you look.

Subject: Re: Anyone in Michigan? From: Vic S. To: Fix Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:33:54 (PDT) Email Address: vrstull Message: Dave: Just the excuse you needed to move west. Come on out to So.Cal as I and my other have-no-life friends train almost every weekend! Vic S. Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: Anyone in Michigan? From: Fix To: Vic S. Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:07:02 (PDT) Email Address: fix@tir.com Message: Hey thanks for the offer, however I just moved back home from Phoenix 3 years ago. Michigan doesn't have that little snake problem that the southwest has. ha ha. Besides, the Michigan weather changing every 10 minutes keeps you on your toes.

Subject: Re: Anyone in Michigan? From: Hombre To: Vic S. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:26:37 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Gee, Vic, I am under the impression that training is having a life. Where do you train anyway? And Dave, here is a NSTRA site with NSTRA trials in your area. Call some of the phone numbers you find there and you will surely be hooked up with some people and clubs. NSTRA is a neat thing to join also, you will find a lot of support and friends with knowledge in there. http://www.nstra.org/michigan.htm Hombre

Subject: 2-year-old Pointer From: Chris To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:47:47 (PDT) Email Address: chrisair62@hotmail.com Message: I have just acquired a 2-year-old pointer bitch. I have no idea about her history as she was a stray I rescued from the pound, but she seems eager and intelligent. Any ideas on whether she would take well to hunting, and whether or not it would be worth my time to teach her.

Subject: Re: 2-year-old Pointer From: Blake B. To: Chris Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:14:57 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: You may very well have lucked into a dog that is worth training and/or already started. Let her get used to you and her new surroundings for a few days. Put her on a check cord, she may run off, put a few quail out for her. Check cord her into the birds crosswind and see if she will point. If she points, let her chase and shoot a blank gun. My guess is she will probably be bird shy, gun shy, or both. But, you never know. If you don't have much or any experience with this, take her to a trainer and let him evaluate her. Most dogs like this are at a shelter for a reason.

Subject: Re: 2-year-old Pointer From: Vic S. To: Blake B. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:18:52 (PDT) Email Address: vrstull@aol.com Message: Blake's reply caused me to think about how different a single breed of dog can be by virtue of developed breeding lines. Since I have GSP's I know for example I know some are bred for he show ring and others are meant to be hunters. But is the same true of English Pointers? Would I be correct to assume the same is true of other sporting breeds? Vic S. Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: 2-year-old Pointer From: Bob K To: Vic S. Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:23:08 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Vic There's a substantial difference between hunting and show English pointers, English and Irish setters, to the degree that a novice can see the conformation differences. In the field, the evolved changes are truly dramatic. The most telling point is that they basically have two different stud books, AKC and FDSB. The show/field dichotomy in Brittanies, GPSs and Vizslas exists and is growing, unfortunately. Bob K

Subject: Re: 2-year-old Pointer From: Hombre To: Vic S. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:46:24 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: I wasn't going to reply to the pointer question as I am a GSP person myself. But it thought it ought to be pointed out that in this area at least, and I would bet on it in other areas with lots of land to run on that it is the same....... Big running pointers are lost in the country all the time. One dairyman I know said he used to get at least two a year come to his place. A friend of mine said she was given a dog that was found wondering in the country and showed me a picture of it, it was a young pointer, nice looking in good shape and looked like it had a lot like the Elhew line. I told her I was going to come steal it, joking of course, and she told me she had already neutered it. A friend of mine that runs pointers loses pups occasionally to. But myself, I do not want a dog from the pound. I want a pedigreed dog from darn good lines and with all the papers to put my time and money into. The cost of the dog, no matter how much you pay is only a small amount of what you will have in it in a few years. This is a long time investment and I want my time and money in good dogs. As far as pointers in shows, I do not know. I hate what some show people want to do to GSPS, but on the other hand they perform a service in helping to retain the looks our breed started with. Some have combination show and field dogs. Now that is good. And I wish all dogs that went into show had to be field dogs also, and that all field dogs had to meet confirmation requirements. Then we would have GSPS that looked like GSPS, hunted like GSPS and trialed as good as a GSP can get. With AKC's new DNA requirements on studs that may come to pass someday anyway. Just my view. Hombre

Subject: Re: 2-year-old Pointer From: Chris To: Hombre Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 22:03:24 (PDT) Email Address: chrisair62@hotmail.com Message: Well, thanks. I guess I kinda figured that this might be a dog that someone else had invested some time and effort in.....or not. She definitely likes birds. Being as it is that I have no real idea about her lines, I didn't figure to send her right off to a $2000 trainer. Yet. I guess i'll just spend some time with her myself while I look for a good dog man. Thanks for the tip about working her into some quail crosswind. Any ideas on a good trainer in the Southern Cal, Western AZ area?

Subject: Re: 2-year-old Pointer From: Drew To: Chris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 09:47:49 (PDT) Email Address: apayne@austin.rr.com Message:

Subject: Re: 2-year-old Pointer From: Drew To: Drew Date Posted: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:03:07 (PDT) Email Address: apayne@austin.rr.com Message: Whoops, I hit reply on accident....sorry. Chris, I would just keep the dog for the summer and get her confident and bold by just playing, walking, and hanging out together. You'll get a feeling of what she is capable of in that time. Unlike other breeds, nearly all pointers are of hunting stock and will hunt to some degree or another. How the dog holds it tail, how much endurance and speed it has, and how biddible it is will be the difference in breeding. I bought my dog through the newspaper at 2 1/2 years for $100 and she is one of the best dogs I've owned. Although she wasn't a pound dog and had a pedigree. Good luck

Subject: Re: 2-year-old Pointer From: Bob K To: Chris Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:27:23 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Need to stop posting early in the morning before my coffee. Message to Vic is a little garbled. See 'Hard Handed Training' for So Calif. trainer ideas. Sam and other locals also have first hand info.

Subject: retrieve to hand From: jake To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:38:42 (PDT) Email Address: badfishj19@cs.com Message: I looked through the archives but didnt find anything on this subject. My gsp(Haley) wont retrieve to hand. I havent had her on birds yet, but anything I throw for her whether it be a dummy or a ball will be brought in my direction then she tries to run when I approach. When I put her on a long lead she will retrieve a few times then doesnt want to anymore. I dont want this to cross over to birds. I am getting some live quail in a few weeks and would welcome any suggestions.

Subject: Re: Retrieving problems From: Hombre To: jake Date Posted: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:45:47 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Subj: Getting a dog to return to retrieving Date: 05/08/2000 6:56:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: AA Hombre If you have a training book follow it closely, especially the part about the dog having fun. Retrieving must be fun to a dog. If you yell at her, correct her, or fail to pet and praise her, or take the bird away from her before you praise and pet her you lose. Another very important detail..... Never allow a pup or dog to get all that he wants of anything. Not birds, retrieving, or running in the field. You should have fun with the pup, maybe this would be a good time to introduce it to birds. One of the worst things a person can do with a dog is over train. It will cause them to lose interest. Give her time out to have fun. Get some pigeons, then take your pup out and tie her to a stake or something, pull the flight feathers out of the bird so it can't fly, hold it by the feet and let it flap it's wings, make exciting noises yourself like you are having the time of your life. Then toss the bird over onto the ground and chase it, still leaving the dog tied. Do this for a few days, then toss the bird and let her fetch it, with a check cord on her so you can pull her back to you if she decides to not bring it back to you. DO NOT YANK while the bird is in h