Upland Bird Dog: Bird Dog Training and Upland Bird Hunting

Subject: Link to dogs as athletes
From: Sam M.
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 11:22:09 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
To All, Earlier, Vic S. posted an observation that bird dogs are outstanding athletes. I found and added a great link in the First Aid/Health web page that describes dogs as athletes (http://home.earthlink.net/~k9care/). Also see the related link to limber tail, nutrition, and other topics. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: New to the Game
From: Diego
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 09:54:26 (PDT)
Email Address: dcsail7cs@yahoo.com

Message:
Just wanted to introduce myself to everyone as I have been flwg posts for a little while trying to gather some info. I am in the process of getting a Vizsla that I would like to hunt, but since she won't be available until the fall I thought I would start doing some studying/learning now. I have already gone through the list and ordered some of the books you all have recommended (Thank you!) and in the process of looking for a local pro for tips. My question so far (and I am sure I will have plenty) is why does one wait for nearly over a year to teach obedience? It may sound like an odd question but my background is retrievers which is just the opposite. How much early OB is too much? Thanks in advance for your help. -Diego

Subject: Re: New to the Game
From: Blake B.
To: Diego
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 19:07:42 (PDT)
Email Address: adtrend@aol.com

Message:
Diego, everyone is right. The dog must learn to be independent before you clamp down on it with obedience. Depending on his age, work on here/come and his name. Don't let him ignore you. If he does, you are teaching him that not listening is OK. Put him on a checkcord and work on here. Work on his name around the house. The risk of having a dog under foot is not worth teaching him to be obedient at an early age. You have plenty of time. Whoa can be started at 8 months or so. It doesn't take long to teach usually. A dog with no range is best called a pet.

Subject: Re: New to the Game
From: Vic S.
To: Diego
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 13:10:55 (PDT)
Email Address: vrstull@aol.com

Message:
I think it depends on what type of obedience training you have in mind. I'll state for the record I'm not the most experienced but the dogs I've seen taught to heel before being introduced to birds tend not to range very far. It took us some time to convince them that it was O.K. to get out and hunt up birds. My first goal with a new pup always has been to help develop its natural desire to find birds by just exposing them to wild birds and letting them chase their hearts out. Once that instinct is helped along I then start with 'whoa' and go on from there. I just think that the dog first has to be given the opportunity to discover and develop its instinct to find birds. Next to you, as its master, hunting will be its reason for existence as far as the dog's concerned, which is the way we as hunters expect and like it. Vic Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: New to the Game
From: ghrousseau
To: Diego
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 11:20:04 (PDT)
Email Address: ghrousseau@aol.com

Message:
Try to join a Vizsla club in your area. You will get a chance to be around others with the same type of breed. Their experience will be helpful. This past weekend I was training my 2 yr old female Vizsla and there was a club event going on. I got to talk to quite a few other owners who train for hunting as well a agility tests. I also got to look at 25 or 30 other dogs at the same time. I asked questions about health and eating as well as training. Very benificial. Also, be aware that Vizslas don't do well in a Kennel. They should be an inside dog and they require a large amount of attention. Good luck.

Subject: Re: New to the Game
From: Sam M.
To: Diego
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 10:48:22 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Diego, Welcome to the Training Forum! Thank you for ordering Amazon books through UplandBirdDog.com. As a member of Amazon Associates, UplandBirdDog.com recieves a very small referral fee for buying qualified books and this helps to maintain UplandBirdDog.com that includes this Training Forum. Certain types of training are delayed to promote desire and and enthusiasm in a bird dog. This varies from dog to dog, within lines and especially between breeds. However, understanding the situation, determining what and when to train specific behaviors are best. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: seizsure update
From: Mike G
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 07:43:01 (PDT)
Email Address: mgrandick@prodigy.net

Message:
I made a post a few weeks ago about my 5 year old vizsla that had some kind of seizsure. I promised to share whatever findings that were made. After several tests the results were unconclusive as to the exact cause of these events. Heart problems were ruled out as was epilepsy and heart worms. The vets came to the conclusion that Huck is having an occasional bout of toxic shock probably caused by an abnormal vein that shunts blood carrying amonia,which is a waste product of protien breakdown and usually removed by the liver, around the liver and directly into the heart causing his symptoms. This type of 'shunt' is apparently NOT UNCOMMON in larger size dogs. Should this be the case surgery to remove this uneeded vein is an option but reducing the protein content of his food was the agreed upon as a first step in treatment. It is believed that reduced protien was more appropriate due to the fact that Huck has only suffered from these episodes on rare occasions and it isn't a cronic problem. No other restrictions were deemed necessary and the dog will continued his normal activities. Whether other veterinarians agree with these findings or not would be an interesting topic. Anyway I'm sorry to bore anyone reading this but I did promise a follow up. Mike G

Subject: Re: seizsure update
From: Sam M.
To: Mike G
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 22:06:13 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Mike, Under the circumstances, thanks for sharing good news about Huck. Changing the diet sounds like a good first. I know of many people who have benefitted from a change in their diets. Lets hope this seizsure-like symptoms doesn't occur again. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: seizsure update
From: Bob K
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:51:11 (PDT)
Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com

Message:
Ditto Sam's thoughts. Seizsures, while scary, are reasonally common and can be mitigated thru meds.

Subject: Strict as a Hunter?
From: Vic S.
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 19:43:04 (PDT)
Email Address: vrstull@aol.com

Message:
Something I've always been meaning to ask but keep forgetting. For those of you who hunt, how strict are you with your dogs as far as 'hunting dog etiquette' goes? Do you insist the dog perform as well as it would in a training or field trial situation? My dog, to do a little bragging I guess, is a great pointer and retriever. She'll honor instantly, do just about anything asked of her. But man, when hunting wild birds she'll go through anything to get to a downed bird regardless of what dog first pointed it. The drive to get that bird is too engrained. And while she's very steady to wing and shot in a training situation, she is not in a wild bird hunting setting. I suppose I could train her more on wild birds but I don't live close enough to a bird population that allows me to do it often. (Valley quail visit my yard from time to time but I think my neighbors would get annoyed with me blanking them as part of a steady dog training regimen.) Bottom line question is, how picky are you with your dog in a hunting situation? Is field trial perfection asking too much for the hunting dog? My own opinion is that it is but I'm interested in what others think about it. Vic Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: Strict as a Hunter?
From: Blake B.
To: Vic S.
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 19:02:31 (PDT)
Email Address: adtrend@aol.com

Message:
Vic: Bottom line...Your dog only has to please you. A broke dog is a dog not many people own. Whatever you want out of your dog. I will say that if you hunt with broke dogs and your dog is always stealing their dogs retrieves, you may very well lose some hunting partners. I will say a broke dog is the only thing that is acceptable in a field trial, but hunting pheasants may be very difficult if the dog is not allowed to at least break on the shot.

Subject: Re: Strict as a Hunter?
From: Lou
To: Vic S.
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 05:23:14 (PDT)
Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com

Message:
Vic, This is up to the person who owns the dog. If you hunt with people who have completly broke dogs yours should be too. If not you are asking too much to ask you dog to stay broke when the rest aren't.It is the safest for the dog to be completly broke. But in all honesty when I hunted my dogs went with the shot. I feel all dogs should be broke to stand to shot as a min. to many dogs are shot when they brake on flush.

Subject: Re: Strict as a Hunter?
From: Vic S.
To: Lou
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 06:56:44 (PDT)
Email Address: vrstull@aol.com

Message:
You identified my worst fear. I hunt quail mainly, a notoriously low flying bird. It's how I got shot from about 30 yards out five years ago and I could see it happening very easily to a dog chasing a bird. Vic

Subject: Holding on point
From: Brian W.
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:42:16 (PDT)
Email Address: hapyhntr@netscape.net

Message:
While almost every book or video has a section on 'whoa', I have not found one that addresses how to reinforce the dogs stauchness and holding ability for extended times. My concern is that my pup hold for 10 minutes plus when I am not present. This is a situation which can arise when I let the dog run big or in a trial when I may not be immediately behind her. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on insuring her steadiness.

Subject: Re: Holding on point
From: Blake B.
To: Brian W.
Date Posted: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 13:47:34 (PDT)
Email Address: adtrend@aol.com

Message:
Brian: Everything depends on the dog's level of training and natural development as to when to break the dog. Since you mentioned trials I will assume you are going to want the dog steady to wing and shot. If the dog has lost interest in chasing and will hold for a good while it may be ready to be broke. Breaking the dog will take a lot out of him, if you do it too soon and get down on him too much you will ruin the dog. I would make sure the dog understands WHOA fully. Then read Bob Wehle's method, Delmar Smith's, etc. and decide how to break your dog. You definitely have to be able to read the dog to know what he will take.

Subject: Re: Holding on point
From: Sam M.
To: Brian W.
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 22:05:39 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Basically, the dog learns to stand on birds for any duration, because it has learned through proper training and from its mistakes that if it gets too close to the bird, the bird will flush. That is why it is so important not to sleep birds but to train with birds that act wild or on wild birds. Further this reinforcement not to flush but to stand on birds is enhanced when birds are shot over its points. These behaviors can be seen in well hunted bird dog without much formal training. The dog doesn't know 'whoa' but it understands that if it gets too close to a wild bird, the bird will flush. A bird dog that is well trained and experienced on wild birds will stand until you get there without saying a single word. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Holding on point
From: Dave C
To: Brian W.
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 20:25:23 (PDT)
Email Address: david@crusoe.net

Message:
Brian, Teaching the dog to be steady to wing and shot is done in a controlled envoirment. Once the dog is showing 100% broke in this envoirment the transition to the field should be easier. If the dog starts knocking birds you must come back to the controlled area and repeat previous lessons. Your not going to be able to whoa the dog if he is 10 minutes to the front and you shouldn't have to, if you break the dog properly. The first few times you make the transition from the controlled envoirment you have to either keep the dog in tight or have a good horse to run the dog down to make any corrections if necessary. How old is this'pup'? Pointing for 10 minutes will come with maturity.

Subject: Re: Holding on point
From: Vic S.
To: Brian W.
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 19:17:57 (PDT)
Email Address: vrstull@aol.com

Message:
If your 'pup' is old enough in your opinion to withstand the 'pressure' of the additional time it's being asked to hold a point the suggestions already tendered sound good. I have the benefit of a larger yard for a suburban area (almost an acre) and would just whoa my dog and then walk away a short distance and we'd watch each other. 'Here' command, heel the dog and praise it. Increased the time and distance. Then disappeared from the dog's sight. Any movement was addressed by quick correction by putting the dog back where it was w/ praising. Only did this three or four times a day. When you train on birds you can increase the time you take to flush the bird but don't make the mistake I made by doing it too often. Dog, so goes my hypothesis, got bored and began flagging. Corrected that problem early this training season but it took me a while to figure out why it was happening. I think too that a hunting dog will figure it out pretty well because any movement on a wild bird, and oftentimes absolutely none, will result in a flush. They just tend to steady up as long as the situation demands it seems to me. Like all other training just make it brief but to the point and be patient. Vic Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: Holding on point
From: AAHombre
To: Brian W.
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 13:49:02 (PDT)
Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM

Message:
Brian, I am going to give the method I came up with and have used on several dogs. It is not to be used until the dog is already staunch, holding as I described in the reply to 'Keep going or back up' of may 21st by Kent Patterson. It is not for young dogs, and can make a soft dog softer. So with that warning here goes. Equipment: E- collar with a lower intensity setting Two check cords or ropes Two places to tie rope, such as two stakes. A place to walk off to and hide that the dog will think you are gone but yet you can observe it. I do this near the kennels so the other dogs can observe too. I hook both ropes to the dog collar, the E collar is put on an hour or so ahead of time so the dog forgets it is on. Make sure you do not use too high of an intensity. Both ropes are tied with the dog in the middle, and about four to six inches of slack left in them so the he is not held taut at all, but not so much slack that the dog can move very far. I whoa the dog and walk off, and either go around the corner of a building and back inside to where I can watch through a crack or window or such and make sure the dog does not know where I am. I wait until the instant a dog moves a paw then apply instant correction until it is still. I don't tell it to whoa, it has already had the command. When it stops moving I wait again. Most dogs do not need but a few repeats. But repeat the treatment for a a few days, until you are sure of it, and it knows that it is not to move. After a dog is staunch for 15 minutes I seldom ever need to use that again on the same dog. The worst part for me is the wait, I have a difficult time making myself watch the dog stand, it is boring and my mind tends to wander off. But to work one must watch and hit the dog the instant he moves, if not it is wasted effort and does the dog no good. I also am interested in any other ways to make one staunch for long periods, if there is a better way than this I would be glad to try it. Hombre.

Subject: Re: Holding on point
From: Mike
To: Brian W.
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 13:21:56 (PDT)
Email Address: mrcoolid@sgsintl.com

Message:
I had both a brittany and a gsp, and i would whoa them it the back yard and go in the house and watch them through the window. If they moved i would pick them up and replace them back where they were. When they stayed nthe length of time i wanted, i would go to the corner of the house and whistle and they would come running, then i just praised up bigtime. I started with shoet amounts of time in their sight, then out of their sight. good luck

Subject: Bill Gibbons Seminar
From: Sam M.
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 22:47:21 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
To All, FYI, I have uploaded information regarding the Bill Gibbons bird dog training seminar June 10 and 11 at Maurice Lindley's kennel. Please see the home page for the link. Briefly, Mr. Gibbons is a great communicator and a first rate bird dog trainer. For additional information regarding Mr. Gibbons, please see his web page. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: new bird dog
From: cory
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:11:01 (PDT)
Email Address: ccgrips@flashmail.com

Message:
Hello. My wife and I went to the pound to get a free puppy to keep our rottweiler company. We ran into a weimananer mix. It looks full blodded besides full length tail and chocolate coat. Otherwise it looks like any other weimananer. I got the idea to train this pup for next seasons hunting as he shows great retreiving instinct and endurance(Our rottweiler is more worn out than she has ever been). I am not new to pheasant hunting here in SW Iowa but have never hunted with a dog. What kind of dogs are weimananers? Do I basically just need to teach him to stay within range? I think he has all the instincts of the breed as he appears to be 98% weimer. He appears to be 6 mos. to 1 yr old. He has alot of pup in him and still has baby teeth. I am not much 0of a reader and was just wondering if someone could give me some grassroots downhome traing advice via e mail or on this message board. If you can help me with a simple regimine I think I can figure out the rest. I have experience obedience traing dogs( sit, come, ect.) I have several friends who have offered me advice such as a tether rope with spiked collar to teach him to stay in range. But I guess I do not know what qualities I should try to achieve out of this dog and what is the proper range for the dog to stay in? Like I said I would really appreciate some simple no nonsense training tips to help me on my journey. Sincerely Cory McAlpin

Subject: Re: new bird dog
From: Blake B.
To: cory
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 06:54:42 (PDT)
Email Address: adtrend@aol.com

Message:
Cory: I would echo what Hombre said. Of course, he said my advise was good. I would find someone in your area who will help, if you are determined to keep this dog and see if he will hunt. The first thing I would do is find a trainer with some quail, pigeons, pheasant, chukar, etc. and plant them lightly or release them. Let the dog run and see if he will point or at least has a nose at all. This may take a few sessions, because more than likely he will be clueless, at least at first. I would not put the dog on a checkcord at all, except when you take him for walks. Get him used to the checkcord or lead before you mess with a pinch collar. Don't teach the dog obedience, being some Weim, his range will probably be short anyway. If you just love this dog, you may just have to see what you can do with him. From the Weims I have seen, most are not the best bird dogs anyway. Something I would watch very closely is his level of aggressiveness. A male rotweiler and male Weim mix could spell trouble down the road. Two male dogs will typically have some problems, but considering that you have two aggressive breeds, be careful, especially if you have kids. I personally would never leave these dogs alone in a room with a small child.

Subject: Re: new bird dog
From: Dave C
To: cory
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 06:38:05 (PDT)
Email Address: david@crusoe.net

Message:
Cory, Wiemerainers are generally a close working versatile breed which 'point' their game upon detecting it. Pointing is a momentary pause before a pounce. Through proper training you can teach the dog to 'hold' the point so you can flush and shoot the bird. Depending on your needs, I doubt very much you will have to control his range, especially at this young age. Teach him to come, introduce him to the sound of a small caliber gun, maybe some retrieving. Sherry Ray Ebert has a good video 'Training English Setters & Continental Breeds' which is well worth the minimal investment. Good Luck Dave

Subject: Re: new bird dog
From: Hombre
To: cory
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:49:28 (PDT)
Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM

Message:
Well, Cory I will give two tips. The first one is to get a good quality purebred hunting dog from a good breeder. The cost of the dog, no matter what you pay for it will be a small amount of the total you have in it in a few years, not counting all the hours invested. The second thing is to buy a good book on training pointers or versitile hunting dogs and going back through all the archives on this site and reading them carefully, there is all you need to know on this site. And as Blake said in the previous post, hands on training is invaluable if you can find someone to train with, If you get into a bird dog club you will have lots of good friendly advice, some good and some bad. GOOD LUCK Hombre

Subject: Training book/method
From: Brendan
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 12:37:12 (PDT)
Email Address: brendanb@ms.dc.k12.mn.us

Message:
My family has just brought home an 8 1/2 week old English Setter. Can anyone recommend a great training book or method? I used Richard Wolter's GUN DOG with my GSP, but I have heard bits and pieces of info. that perhaps one shouldn't teach sit to a pointer or setter until whoa is mastered and similar things. Is training an E Setter different??? Should I switch methods??? Go to a specific E Setter training method????

Subject: Re: Training book/method
From: Steve
To: Brendan
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 05:34:51 (PDT)
Email Address: shettrick@home.com

Message:
My setter has responded really well to Delmar Smith's methods, mostly because Smith advocates kindness toward the dog. I have one Paul Long book but don't like it because he suggests things like smacking the dog with an empty paper towel tube to teach heel. I don't know about other setters, but my dog would shut down and stop listening if I hit him with a cardboard tube. He responds great to gentle handling and lots of praise though. Smith seldom uses pain as a teaching device, but when he does (like using a pinch collar to teach whoa) he does it in a way so the dog does not associate the pain with you. In this method the dog mostly associates only good things with the trainer.

Subject: Re: Training book/method
From: Blake B.
To: Brendan
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:56:06 (PDT)
Email Address: adtrend@aol.com

Message:
Brendan: I would suggest reading all the books you can, from Delmar SMith, Bob Wehle, Ken Roebuck, etc. But, the very first thing I would do is find a professional trainer in your area that is willing to guide you in the development of your dog. You may very well spend several thousand dollars or more, but I don't see the point, if you have never trained a dog before, to experiment, try things, etc. without knowing how to read a dog. That is the number one most important thing, to have a good dog. A pro worth anything will let you observe training sessions, get you involved, and teach you how to train a dog, and hopefully to read the dog. The books are great, but there is NO cookie cutter method to training a dog. If you try and fail, you may have a house pet only for the next twelve years. I know it sounds expensive, but in the long run it will work out cheaper.

Subject: Re: Training book/method
From: Maurice
To: Brendan
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 12:45:28 (PDT)
Email Address: southerngundog@aol.com

Message:
I would get a Bill West Video and follow this method. It is the best training program I have seen. The Dave Walker tapes are also excellent. I think you can order them from this site. I hope one day they will write a book on this method. Good dog training.

Subject: Re: Training book/method
From: Mike G
To: Maurice
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:18:30 (PDT)
Email Address: mgrandick@prodigy.net

Message:
I like Bill Tarrant's 'Best Way to Teach your Gun Dog' the Delmar Smith method.

Subject: Re: Training book/method
From: Hombre
To: Mike G
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:29:23 (PDT)
Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM

Message:
I have several books on dog training and have learned a lot from several different trainers and evan picked up some really good things on this forum. As Mike said, Delmar Smith has a real good method and so do some of the others such as Robert Wehle and Ken Roebeck. There are books out there I have not read, but the worst method I have seen yet is Wolters, evan though there are a few tricks of his I use. Not every dog is the same, some train very easy and some very hard. Some are soft and have to have soft methods and some a trainer can come down on. Different training methods will all yield a dog that points and hunts and retrieves, but the difference is in how well they do. I have not seen Bill Wests training tape but the methods of his I have seen of his I like so far. So I would be glad to second Maurices'es suggestion about Bill West. I also am thinking of a dog training book some day in which there will be listed several training methods and different choices for training. But I am not there yet. And when you get that book wrote Maurice, I will be in line for one. Hombre

Subject: Re: Training book/method
From: Drew
To: Hombre
Date Posted: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 08:44:13 (PDT)
Email Address: apayne@austin.rr.com

Message:
I have to second Hombre on that Wolters books are the worst I've seen on the market and I can't understand why every bookstore carries them over the others. I like Bill Tarrant's books, but they gloss over certain things and you will be wondering what to do when things don't work. A pro trainer or someone with experience can really help you when that happens. Good luck and have fun.

Subject: Re: Training book/method
From: oleman
To: Hombre
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:41:32 (PDT)
Email Address: oleman@choice.net

Message:
Mike Train your own bird dog by Larry Mueller
---
Hunt Close by Jerome B Robinson
---

---
Training your dog for Birdword by Stephen Rafe
---

---
Training Pointing Dogs by Paul Long
---
--The training and care of the Versatile hunting dog By Winterhelt and Bailey
---

---
The Burnt Creek Method of dog Training's By Jim Marti
---
--Plus the one's listed
---

---
If I had to pick just one out of the list it would be The burnt Creek Method of dog traing followed by The training and care of the Versatile hunting dog

Subject: Reward for retrieving
From: Jim
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:14:30 (PDT)
Email Address: jmangkas@adams.net

Message:
In a recent discussion with a trainer, he told me that he rewards the dog for a retrieve by giving the dog the head of the bird, a way of showing the dog that he will share with the dog. This in my opinion is something I wouldn't do. Some believe the reward for the dog is that he gets the bird in the mouth, others would give a 'treat' of some sort. It's my belief that this could lead to a dog eating the entire bird, I'm no pro and would like to get some feedback from people who use this method, either succussfully or not!

Subject: Re: Reward for retrieving
From: Vic S.
To: Jim
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 07:24:27 (PDT)
Email Address: vrstull@aol.com

Message:
The only circumstances under which I've seen a dog eat a bird it was retrieving was when other hunting dogs showed an 'interest' in the bird. I think the dog, which belonged to a good friend, may have seen the interest as a threat to losing it and ate the bird (California valley quail)to keep it for himself. The dog had never done anything like that before, or since, so that was my interpretation of the situation. I tend to agree that the retrieve itself and a kind word on delivery to hunter is ample reward. Vic Redlands, CA.

Subject: Re: Reward for retrieving
From: HOMBRE
To: Jim
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:07:22 (PDT)
Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM

Message:
Robert Wehle the owner of ElHew Kennels who started the famous line of pointers Elhew (Wehle spelled backwards) author of Wing and Shot, and winner of several national field trial championships with his dogs advocates giving the dog the head as a reward. So there must be some merit to it. I had the same misgivings about giving the head as you do. However I train my dogs to love retrieving and their reward for finding and pointing a bird is getting to retrieve it. (Provided I do my part in shooting it) Hombre

Subject: Re: Reward for retrieving
From: Torkel
To: HOMBRE
Date Posted: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:15:05 (PDT)
Email Address: torkel@informreklambyra.se

Message:
It might work, but every dog can be a good retriever without this mess. The old hare hunters used to give the hares head to the dog after a successful hunt, after removing it's front teeth. The dog was supposed to be more motivated after that. The same way of reasoning, I belive. A also need the head for first hanging the bird in the sling (?) and then for the time needed, depending of the temperature, in the garage. Good luck.

Subject: 4 month old britt?
From: mike
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 07:57:00 (PDT)
Email Address: mrcoolid@sgsintl.com

Message:
I have been letting him get out and run 3 or 4 times a week. He has been retrieving in the house also. I started him on some courtnix quail this week. I let him find one in the weeds in a small cage. He got all excited. then I let him catch one after I flushed it. Then I shot one. he picked it up and I went to him and said out and he released it. Then I through it about 15 yards and said fetch. he retrieved it to me and released it in my hand, when I said out. I started him out on a cap gun then a 22. I used a 20 gauge with these birds and he was fine with it. Question: We don't have alot of wild birds, what should i work on next? more of the same? I havn't done any obiedience besides 'NO' and 'Here'. Just playing with fetch in the hallway of my house since 6 weeks. He loves to retrieve. Thank you for this site!

Subject: Re: 4 month old britt?
From: Sam M.
To: mike
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:51:40 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Mike, Do all the things you would do with the pup if it was upland bird season. Do water and field work, exposure to other dogs, people, crate, truck rides, chain gang, and etc. If your state allows training on wild birds, find an area that holds them. In general, you can't make a wild bird dog if you don't expose it to wild birds. The closes to this is probably the use of well condition birds out of recall pens. I would advise against the use of a caged bird. The idea here is that the bird must escape from the dog like a wild bird. Check out the many posts here and in the archives regarding young dogs and how to start them. Good luck with your pup, Sam M.

Subject: Good Stuff
From: Lou
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 14:41:51 (PDT)
Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com

Message:
Just want to share some good thing with all. 1 Videos a Putting Quail backinto your Hunting b Do it yourself Quail peserve for dog training 2 Plans to build a Johny House 3 Predator Control 101 All of this and more can be found at www.qualitywildlife.com Phone 1-877-242-2482 I hope this is helpful several people have asked about these subjects in my e-mail, being one not bent on reinventing the wheel here you can get solid things at a fair price. Lou

Subject: Re: Good Stuff
From: Sam M.
To: Lou
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 08:15:06 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Lou, Thanks for the great 'free' information. Sam

Subject: Re: Good Stuff
From: Gadget Man
To: Lou
Date Posted: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:12:45 (PDT)
Email Address: onpoint@cableone.net

Message:
Just want to share some good thing with all. 1 Videos a Putting Quail backinto your Hunting b Do it yourself Quail peserve for dog training 2 Plans to build a Johny House 3 Predator Control 101 All of this and more can be found at www.qualitywildlife.com Phone 1-877-242-2482 I hope this is helpful several people have asked about these subjects in my e-mail, being one not bent on reinventing the wheel here you can get solid things at a fair price. Lou
---

Subject: Keep Going or Back-Up
From: Kent Patterson
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 10:14:54 (PDT)
Email Address: kent.patterson@nashville.com

Message:
I've been bringing along 3 brittany pups using Bill's method and they've been progressing nicely. They all point their game well and do not chase at flush and fire and know the collar snap means stop. All of this with no talking. However, they all are now wanting to creep at times....do I.. 1. Let them creep and allow the bird to teach them? 2. Snap the collar and make the stop?. 3. Brign them in closer to the bird? 4. Start using launchers and launch a bird whenever they take a step?

Subject: Re: Keep Going or Back-Up
From: Sam M.
To: Kent Patterson
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 08:13:12 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Kent, Lou's respond is a good one with the options you provided. However, I am curious about why are the pups starting to creep now, when before, 'they all point their game well...'. I would ask for more information, however, if your using Mr. West's method I assumed you attended the seminar in Nashville last year. Also, you must be using carded pigeons to train. Without resorting to launchers (which is not a bad idea), I would suggest using the carded pigeons only one or two times so they are fresh and ready to flush. Also, bring the dog cross wind but when the dog scents the bird it is closer to the bird. This should make the bird nervous and should flush if the dog doesn't stop. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Keep Going or Back-Up
From: Kent
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 09:02:44 (PDT)
Email Address: kent.patterson@nashville.com

Message:
Sam, It may be a combination of things. Over the past month, I've had my 13 yr old son walk in front, flush and fire while I stood beside pup with loose lead. The last two session he did not go and as I begin to take a step away from them after they established point they began to creep. Once I got truly in front of them, they stopped. I regularly change out to fresh pigeons and bringing them in closer to the bird originally is option. I may need to go back and do some more training away from game so they better understand standing still and me walking away from them and in front of them.

Subject: Re: Keep Going or Back-Up
From: Hombre
To: Kent
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:37:33 (PDT)
Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM

Message:
A method I use with whoa for making the dog staunch is placing a pigeon on the ground made incapable of flight, whether by removing flight feathers (best) or locking the wings and making it walk and move around, tossing it a bit at times with my foot etc. I keep the dog staunch, he is taught that when he goes on point he cannot move unless told to. I kick bushes, clods, rocks and do everything that I would do in a bird situation and have the dog remain staunch. When I go in on a bird when they are new to them, a lead is placed on the dog before the flush and I have someone hold it just barely taut for the first times, until the dog no longer shows any desire to move once on point. I never allow a dog to move in on a bird unless I cannot find it, then I give the order find the bird, and they reposition unless they know it is too close, then some dogs will nove anyway, and some remain firm. If the dog tries to break hard on the flush or shot I place a half hitch around the flanks and to the collar the next times and until no longer needed, which usually isn't very long. When it lurches it is pinched and held straight with the head still pointed at the bird at the same time. The dog is held until after shot and released to retrieve by calling it's name and told fetch or GET IT. They usually become staunch and broke to wing and shot in one smooth operation. That is what works for me. And it is really neat that you have a 13 year old son to assist you. Hombre

Subject: Re: Keep Going or Back-Up
From: Lou
To: Kent Patterson
Date Posted: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 11:45:53 (PDT)
Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com

Message:
Kent use 4 then 2

Subject: Vizsla Club
From: Lou
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 03:50:05 (PDT)
Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com

Message:
Had a field day with the Vizsla Club of Southern Louisians yesterday. It was a fun day for all and I can tell you at least one person who went to Bill's Sem. in Tx. paid attention and is doing quite well with his dog.I feel all of us pros need to give some back to our sport and it felt good to help a new club out . Lou

Subject: Re: Vizsla Club
From: Adele
To: Lou
Date Posted: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:40:52 (PDT)
Email Address: neuviz@aol.com

Message:
I cannot thank Lou Gleber enough for the time and wisdom he shared with us rookies with vizslas last Sunday. He truely exceeded our expectations and if there is a bird dog trainer heaven, he should be first in line! Thank you!

Subject: Re: Vizsla Club
From: Bill
To: Lou
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:29:27 (PDT)
Email Address: WLBrumfi@aol.com

Message:
It was great to meet with someone who could be so generous with their time and knowledge. Someone who understood that for some of us it is the hands-on training of our dogs that means the most to us. I would like to thank you for all your help and effort. BB

Subject: Re: Vizsla Club
From: Sam M.
To: Lou
Date Posted: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 07:54:15 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
It sounds like you really enjoyed youself. It can be fun helping others out. It's amazing how much you can learn from each dog and by watching others handle their dogs. I remember at least two individuals from Louisiana that had vizslas who attended Bill's Texas training seminar. I'm happy to hear he is doing well. He was willing to learn and that really helps. By posting on this Training Forum many more people are reached and they can learn to train their bird dogs with stlye. Although, it is much easier to learn by watching and getting hands-on training. Your many posts combined with other posts from knowlegdable trainers have made the Training Forum a great place to find real information to solve the many difficults of bird dog training. Thanks, Sam M.

Subject: New Links web page
From: Sam M.
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:54:20 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
To All, FYI, I've added a new web page 'Links' to help you find information regarding conservation, bird dog organization and vet agencies. If you would like to suggest other links, please email me. Thanks, Sam M.

Subject: New litter
From: Hombre
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 13:12:11 (PDT)
Email Address: AAHombre @AOL.COM

Message:
My bitch had a litter of nine the same day I picked that one up, one half sized runt bitch almost died on me yesterday, it was cold and lifeless. I brought it in and had a kid hold it on his stomach while I went to the feed store to get some artificial milk for it which I gave it when I got back. It livened up real well and we took it out to the kennel and put it back in the whelping box with the bitch for a while, but removed it out last night and kept her another dog pup that was smaller than the rest in a box with a light hooked up over it for warmth and safe keeping, it was cold here last night. I fed them a few times in the night then placed them back in the whelping box this morning and removed the others so she would feed them the colostrom they need that is only available the first few days after birth and needed for disease resistance. I have been taking a few pups in and out at a time trading places with them on the bitch to feed and returning the others to the box. I am keeping the the runt and theother smallest with the bitch though so they can stay filled with milk. All them (nine) seem to be getting adequate milk so far. Hombre

Subject: Re: New litter
From: Sam M.
To: Hombre
Date Posted: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:50:41 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Good luck with the litter. It seems you have your hands full with 9 pups. Good luck and fill out the form if you want to list the pups in the Classifieds. Sam M.

Subject: Re: New litter
From: Hombre
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:53:57 (PDT)
Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM

Message:
Thanks Sam, I will do that. They are all doing good now, the runt was running what looked like a losing battle the second day but is doing fine now. Hombre

Subject: New puppy
From: Hombre
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 13:06:34 (PDT)
Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com

Message:
I picked up a new puppy a few days ago, a little 11 week old GSP bitch that is dark ticked all over except for one patch on her withers. The first night she spent in a crate which I had to place next to my bed and reach down and stick a few fingers through the door to let her know she was not all alone the first night, the second night she spent in another room and was quite through the night. I let a couple of kids take her into the field to play for a while when she returned after she napped in the kennel she was introduced to birds, a few pigeons which I teased her with, she came for them as I held one by the legs and let it flap it's wings. After a bit I locked the wings and tossed it, she fetched it back. I let her carry it for a while and unlocked it's wings so it could fly when she set it down. Loved the look on her face when it took flight. She chased a bit and returned to me. I did the same with the second pigeon and then put her up. This morning I came out and beat a coffee can against the kennel a few times while talking to her, she was excited that I came out. Then I took her out and repeated the pigeon thing then took her for a stroll through the field. I love starting new pup's. Hombre

Subject: Re: New puppy
From: Sam M.
To: Hombre
Date Posted: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:44:38 (PDT)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Hombre, Congrats on your new pup! It's always great to start a new pup and see how it develops. What's its breeding and who did you get it from? Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: New puppy
From: Hombre
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 17:20:06 (PDT)
Email Address: Hombre@AOL.COM

Message:
Sam, long story on the breeding of this one, I just class her as real good hunting stock, however I am prepared to be surprised on it as Rawhides Clown, 3X national GSP field champion is only three generations back and the littermates of her dam do well in NSTRA trials. Her sire is an unknown and has little in his background, but he is energetic and looks good and belongs to a non hunter who loves shorthairs and acquired him from some hunting stock in Firebaugh Calif. He has a great disposition and is of the original German Shorthair stock. I also am now the owner of the dam who will be ran in NSTRA trials later this year. The pup will probably be offered for sale later on. She is coming on strong and is making 60 foot retrieves and has pointed quail and pigeon I hid and let her find by walking over close to them until she noticed the scent and located them in tall grass. I allowed her to do as she pleased and she went in on each of them, the quail ran a bit and she sniffed where it had been then came over to me where I had placed myself down wind a bit from it and she continued on with it until she got it flushed. Birds really turn her on. I am just letting her have fun with no commands at all for now. Hombre

Subject: New adult pointer part 2
From: Jenny
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 10:31:19 (PDT)
Email Address: artistonhand@juno.com

Message:
Hi again, I posted recently for advice on bringing a 4 yr. old GSP home & adjusting to new owner and black lab. Anyway, last night I got Sadie. It is going pretty well so far. We met at a park and let the dogs run around for a while, played some fetch, etc. to see who was going to be 'boss dog'. Our lab seemed to be the dominant dog, and there wasn't too much squabbling between them, except when they both wanted the floppy flyer. Since we've been home, they seem to be getting along fine, in fact, at the moment they are both napping on either side of me at the computer! They also decided to trade food dishes thismorning, so I hope that's a good sign. I did find out that I can only play fetch with them when only one is outside. I do have a couple of questions, thoug