Subject: Scenting From: Brian To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 08:10:25 (PDT) Email Address: flyfisher@bambooflyrods.com Message: So far, I've only used quail in a harness on a string for my pup in the yard. Yesterday, I put a quail in a silk stocking and carried it in my pocket while on a walk. When she wasn't looking I put it near a bush. When we came back to it a bit later she ran right over it. After I realized she wasn't going to pick up the scent (for whatever reason) I put it back in my pocket. As soon as I did that, she went nuts trying to get it from my pocket. She's always found birds in the harness very quickly and loves to try to catch them. I'm wondering how much the stocking masked the scent of the bird. Anybody ever notice a difference when dogs attempt to scent them? Thanks.

Subject: Re: Scenting From: Sam M. To: Brian Date Posted: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 08:39:48 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Brian, You would be better off by allowing the bird to escape once the dog gets too close. If the bird flushed when your dog ran over it, that would of been great for the dog. As far as I know, putting birds in stockings or harness is not a common training method. Where did you get these ideas? Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: will experienced dogs point pigeons From: kbrust To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 19:57:47 (PDT) Email Address: kbrust@midusa.net Message: Just found some pigeons and wanted to know if i should by them or just use pen raised quail. Want to know if dogs will point and hold them. Also what is this about carding pigeons. These pigeons are rollers if that makes any difference.

Subject: Re: will experienced dogs point pigeons From: Sam M. To: kbrust Date Posted: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 07:59:02 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Use both depending on your training situation. Pigeons have sufficient scent to be pointed with great intensity. However, like all birds, dogs must associate the scent to that particular speices. Once the dog learns it can't catch them then it will point. As for carding, see many previous post on the subject. As with Bob K, rollers should be fine. If you haven't seen rollers and tumblers fly, they put on a great sky show. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: will experienced dogs point pigeons From: Bob K To: kbrust Date Posted: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:59:01 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Pigeons are about all that I have available from now until the first of the new bobwhite hatch is recall trained. However I don't do much older dog work on birds this time of year. Rollers would excite the dickens out of puppies. What's to lose? Your bobwhite don't recall do they?

Subject: Young dog is aggressive towards old dog From: ddhopson To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 19:39:55 (PDT) Email Address: ddhopson@m-y.net Message: My one year old Brittany went into heat about a month ago and suddenly became aggressive towards my 8 year old Brittany. I attributed it to the heat. I kept the dogs seperated for awhile, thinking that once she was no longer in heat everything would be ok. But she is still aggressive towards my old dog. It seems to be worse when I am present. Today it got really bad and blood was pouring from the old dogs leg and the young dogs ear. I tried to let them go to see if they would work things out, but stopped the ruckus once blood started flowing. Any suggestions on how to correct the problem would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: Re: Young dog is aggressive towards old dog From: Lou To: ddhopson Date Posted: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 03:59:29 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: If you will e-mail me I'll share the way Bill West taught me to stop this behavior. It works most of the time.

Subject: Re: Young dog is aggressive towards old dog From: Sam M. To: ddhopson Date Posted: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 20:43:47 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Females struggling for dominance can be brutal and may even be fatal. I would not let the two alone, especial where one can't avoid and escape the other. If you hunt the two together watch for aggressive interactions near the truck and around birds. It might be that you can't hunt the two together. There are ways to deal with fighting dogs. It requires the use of a powerful deterrence and setting up a mock situation. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Quail droppings From: Nick To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 12:24:41 (PDT) Email Address: moelder@lsu.edu Message: Hi guys, I recently built a pen in my backyard, in which I keep quail to train my 1 year old Vizsla. After reading in the health section on this web page, I am concerned about the possibility of contracting cryptococcus neoformans from the quail droppings. Is this a valid concern and if so, what can I do to limit the risk? Cheers, Nick

Subject: Re: Quail droppings From: Sam M. To: Nick Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 14:20:02 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Nick, This is a valid concern and one should be aware of its symptoms as well as other fungi. C. neoformans is the infectious agent of the fungal disease cryptococcosis. More detailed information can be found at http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hi97146.html. In brief, these fungi are found in the soil and use bird (specific species only?) droppings to grow. When droppings become airborne than the possibilties exsit to become infected. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Quail droppings From: Lou To: Sam M. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 04:43:53 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Nick, I don't know how meny quail you keep but if the quail are on the ground you need to clean the floor of the pen between groups of birds for meny reasons. Use a mask to do it if there is a chance of dust painters mask or get a chemical mask. I use a mix of half an half bleach and water when dry I broad cast lime on the ground I then sprinkle rock salt. By doing this you kill most fungi. all paricites and most of the commond disease that mess with the quail and you. The salt will kill the grass also. In large pens a tiller is used to till the ground after the treatment. Keep it clean an the odds are in your favor.

Subject: Re: Quail droppings From: Nick M. To: Lou Date Posted: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 07:02:52 (PDT) Email Address: moelder@lsu.edu Message: Hi Lou and Sam, Thank you very much for the advice on the quail droppings. I will treat the area as directed. Bill West’s seminar was an excellent experience and since then my Vizsla can not wait to get on our training ground and find some birds. Again, thanks a lot for all your advice; this is web site is great resource. Cheers, Nick M.

Subject: Smart but soft dogs From: Hombre To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 09:36:41 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: What is the best way you know of to work with soft dogs? I usually have problems with the soft ones when I start some obedience training on them at about a 14 months after retrieve and point and whoa are well established. I have had some dogs that I thought were tough turn soft at that point, and some that were soft turn tough. (That I like) I need better methods of handling them. Hombre

Subject: Re: Smart but soft dogs From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 10:11:36 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Hombre, That is astute observation that softer dogs are oftentimes smarter, perhaps because they don't need to be reminded as much. In general, softer dogs will try to 'get away' (ie sitting down, laying down, whinning and etc) from doing a behavior and often wins because the handler stops making the dog do the command. These behavior are displayed at an early age and so must be dealt with early on. As for your question, more detail is needed to address it more throughly. At 14 months alot of dogs (regardless of temperment) are begining serious training and thus the trainer has more troubles at this point. Sam M.

Subject: Re: Smart but soft dogs From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 12:33:57 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: OK Sam, you guys need more info.... I kinda thought that the term soft dogs was well understood in the training community and I want expert advice. Robert Whele's book 'Wing and Shot' does pretty much deal with the soft dog all the way through when looking back on it. But his methods take far too long for me, and he does no retrieve work on them, using force retrieve almost exclusively. I do not want to go that route. Wolters methods will not yield a good dog. I go pretty much with a combination of all of them and a lot of Delmar Smith's stuff. Some of my pups can take a correction with no problem at any age, some, like a real nice running spicy little bitch I have, when at three months started running off with a training dummies. I put a check cord back on her and instead of just hauling her back to me, I gave it a yank as a reprimand, not all that hard and with a regular collar but it startled her, she looked at me, dropped the dummy and refused to pick one up for months. She would run up to them, circle and blink. It was a few months before she would pick one up again. I had to go to birds with her then back to dummies. She now retrieves well doing directed retrieves. She accepted being taught to hold after she started retrieving again in just a couple of sessions. Teaching a dog to hold I think it is Tarrants method I use, placing a hardwood stick in the mouth and holding the collar under her throat by the fore and index finger and placing the thumb under the chin and holding her head up in that position until she would not drop it. But she is months behind the others. When she was given obedience (breaking) she started looking at me constantly for reassurance, blinked some birds, and if she goes on point and I do not come on over to her she leaves the bird. When another dog and she is on point at the same time she will leave hers if I don't go to her first. I hardened her up quite a bit by flying birds for her to chase, (she will go a half mile to bring one back) bringing her into the house, playtime, no corrections (and nothing harsh) for a few months. She will go a good half a mile to bring back a bird. But any correction and she cringes like she has been beat, and has never been beat. I had another dog (bitch) of the same litter that showed being soft, but when she was given obedience she toughened up and became a real hot one. She sold for a good price, $1200.oo to a hunter. She would have been a real good trial dog. Two that were tough go getters became soft and I had to go backwards with them for over a month, doing things with them that they did well and would not need corrections on, and a lot of birds. Anyway, I still have that one and she is still too soft to justify selling her yet and way to soft to field trial, though she would be a good one if she ever toughens up. She is right at two now. I need a better way. Suggestions? Hombre

Subject: Re: Smart but soft dogs From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 07:50:23 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Hombre, I read your post several times and I find it somewhat difficult to make suggestions on your particular situation. This is one of those times where watching you and the dog(s) would make the picture more clear. However, blinking birds and soft point intensity are usually caused by some inappropriate training regardless of temperment. For example, these behaviors could occur by a miss timed e-collar stimulation or repeated corrections while the dog is on birds. Each dog is different and to maintain their innate stlye than train each differently. However, all dogs seem to respond better if the trainer keeps quiet and works slowly around them. good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Found a litter of Pointers From: Cory R To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:24:36 (PDT) Email Address: pacecar@willmar.com Message: I have been looking for a litter of pointer pups and would like some feedback on a litter I just found. The sire is NBHA champion - Honky Tonk Attitude and the dam is a full sister to Frontline Spike. She has produced a 2X champion and of the 3 litters she has had there are 7 winners. This is the first time for this mating though. Anybody have any experience with these bloodlines or useful information?

Subject: Re: Found a litter of Pointers From: Adrian To: Cory R Date Posted: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 19:08:41 (PDT) Email Address: AdrianJcksn@aol.com Message: I had a pup out of Bull and Miller's Silver Lady. The pup was extremely stylish, very fast on the ground but he was very little. He died. One of my clients own a littermate brother to Bull, I bred him to my daughter of House's Rain Cloud. The dog I bred to is a south texas truck dog. I have him in the kennel now, He is very nice. He is a little bigger than Bull. That litter is the only litter out of Fiddlin Rocky Boy and Queens Addition. My pups are $250 either sex when they are born.

Subject: Re: Found a litter of Pointers From: Lou To: Cory R Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 03:58:51 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Cory, I have judged and seen Honky Tonk Attitude, he is a fine animal, displayes a good nose and a lot of bird sence for a libirated bid dog. He looks good on point intense, and covers the ground the way I want a dog to. Bull is hevy Fiddler bred and his Dam's Sire is Addition's Go Boy. I saw Spike and his litter mates on my summer grounds when they were young. Fred Dileo and Chris would come and work with Richard Woolever and I. Spike was the best pup I ever saw Chris raise.These pups should be worth lookig at

Subject: Re: Found a litter of Pointers From: Lou To: Lou Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 04:06:29 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Cory, You did not say who had the litter but a word of advice check with The American Field to see if the pups can be registered. I've been told some of the Frontline dogs have a hold on reg.s till a bill is paid. Check with the Field and they will tell you if these pups can be registered .

Subject: Re: Found a litter of Pointers From: Sam M. To: Lou Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 09:05:43 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Check out the Field April 8, 2000 issue. There is an article describing the NBHA North Central Regional Championship that Honky Tonk Attitude won. It briefly describes his hour run with a picture of him as well. See the home page of UplandBirdDog.com for phone and web site of American Field, if you need it. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Found a litter of Pointers From: Cory R To: Sam M. Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 20:08:12 (PDT) Email Address: pacecar@willmar.com Message: Thanks guys I subscribe to The American Field. I will check on the status with them. Lou what impressed you the most about the frontline pups? Their ground speed, pointing instinct, nose, intelligence or a combination of everything. Thanks

Subject: Re: Found a litter of Pointers From: Lou To: Cory R Date Posted: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 19:00:55 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Cory that was one of the best litters I ever saw Chris with . The pups had lots of desire and wanted to go all the time. They were bird crazy and could fly across the ground. When it came to Spike he just stood out,there is just something that makes one look at a special pup and he was that.

Subject: Poor puppy manners From: John K. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 11:44:40 (PDT) Email Address: johnmkoller@netscape.net Message: Just a couple of puppy manner questions. First my 13 week old Brittany, has been with me since six weeks,is crate trained, spends days in outside kennel(while I'm at work)but sleeps inside house in crate @ night, has recently been grabbing a mouthful of chow from her bowl and walking away from bowl, and dropping on carpet and then eats.Shoul I doe something, or coax to stay and eat? She likes to bite everything, with her mouth going full bore all the time. I give rawhides , and have been cionsitent with no biting pants, hands,ect.Went from stern no,to water mist in a bottle, to grabbing by scruff with a cold stare, but doesn't seem to get better.Other than that a real angel.Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Subject: Re: Poor puppy manners From: John K. To: John K. Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 08:47:46 (PDT) Email Address: johnmkoller@netscape.net Message: Thank you for the advice guys.I will follow Sam's advice on feeding, and try to stop biting with increased corrections.She appears to be very birdy(on songbirds anyway), comes by name and retrieves bumpers well for a little tike, I beleive a friend for life! Thanks for the great forum and advice, John

Subject: Re: Poor puppy manners From: Brian To: John K. Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 07:47:15 (PDT) Email Address: flyfisher@bambooflyrods.com Message: My 13 week old Pudelpointer pretty much leaves things alone when I tell her to 'leave it' but she still likes to nip no matter what I do. She's gotten a bit better but maybe I'm getting used to it! I think a lot of puppies will grab food and run around with it. My puppy now did it until I began to feed her in her crate and my Vizsla did it up until the day she died. More annoying than anything. Brian

Subject: Re: Poor puppy manners From: Hombre To: John K. Date Posted: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 07:17:12 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: I misread this post the first time, I thought it said 13 month old pup and was not going to touch it. I go with everything Sam said, but will add that when the pup bites you to let out a loud 'Ouch' ....... this is very close to the same sound they hear in the litter when they hurt another and usually works to stop it. If not, the backhanding that Sam said will, but best done with an OUCH. I use a command to stop a pup or dog in it's tracks,....... it is a natural sound to a dog and they almost always stop what they are doing and look at me. It is ehhhh ehhhhhhh or ahhhhhh ahhhh said in a harsh tone. Then it is followed with a 'No' or whatever is appropriate. It is meant to stop them from doing whatever it is they are doing and look for instructions, and I continue the use of this as long as I have the dog. For instance, if one takes a wrong direction on a hand signal, it is given the ehhh ehhh and sent again. This command does not have to be taught, every pup instinctually knows it. If a pup starts to do something it is not supposed to ever do that command is given to stop them followed immediatly by a 'NO' to let them know it is a no no. Hombre

Subject: Re: Poor puppy manners From: Sam M. To: John K. Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 13:31:35 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Congrats on your pup! I am a firm believer in conditioning the dog to eat in one sitting. The food is removed as soon as the pup looses interest. Don't worry your pups will not starve. Benefits will be realized many times over during hunting trips. This feeding method will also promote your dog to eat even though it is tired. Try placing the bowl of food in its crate. Once the pup stops eating, take the food away. Do this each time for several days. It will not take long before the pup finishes its food. As for bitting; anticipate the bitting and give a quick backhand slap right on the snout. Don't say anything, but let the pup learn that bitting means a backhand. Don't hurt the pup but just enough to discourage the behavior. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: what type of dog From: ken To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:09:40 (PDT) Email Address: sco_ttee@yahoo.com Message: i'm choosing a dog (flushing) but i'm not sure what kind. i'm thinking of a lab. what do you think?

Subject: Re: what type of dog From: Hombre To: ken Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:01:24 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: I think if you want a flushing dog and you want a Lab both your mind is practically made up and you made a real good choice. Labs will work close to you (with a little training) and have the heft to bust through brush and have great staminia. The lab will not only suffice in the field as a flushing dog but be a great waterfowl retriever to boot. Get Bill Tarrants book 'Hey Pup, Fetch it upP.' You will find about everything you need in it, and a few questions here on the forum should take care of the rest a few months on down the line. Hombre

Subject: Re: what type of dog From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:44:15 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Ken, if you haven't already made up your mind it's not to late to get a bird dog. :-) What ever type of flushing dog you decide on, make sure it's from field linage. Research the breeder and its dogs. Checkout the parents and make sure they are genetically sound and healthy. Don't let cost be the determining factor in your decision. Finally, have fun with your pup. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: what type of dog From: Steve S. To: Sam M. Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 11:23:12 (PDT) Email Address: sssarmi@pacbell.net Message: Ken, I have two English Pointers, two Labs, one a traditional log with legs and the other streamlined for endurance in the field, and an English Cocker. I am fortunate to have trained and worked with many different breeds for different applications. I personally have found that the Lab is probably the most versatile dog I have ever worked with. However, the style and grace of the English pointer is very exciting. The English Cocker is a great flushing and retrieving dog and works relatively close. A cute dog for the family if that is a consideration. My personal preference is the pointer. Take into consideration all your needs before you make a final decision. Happy hunting, Steve S.

Subject: Re: what type of dog From: Torkel To: Sam M. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:59:27 (PDT) Email Address: torkel@informreklambyra.se Message: It's interesting how different the attitude, and usage, of different breeds can be. Here, and I guess I speak for the whole of Europe, a lab is definetely NOT a flushing dog. It's primeraly a retriever. Among hunting labs the lighter field type is mostly used for high speed retrieving water fowl, pheasant etc and the heavier type is among the best for tracking, beside retrieving of cource. Great dogs at this. (The even heavier version is used for warming up sofas.) Some professional hunters, and others, also use labs for 'flushing' deer, wild boar etc. A few is capable of bringing down wounded deer. Great flushing dogs here are mostly field type spaniels. Good luck. Torkel.

Subject: Re: what type of dog From: Sam M. To: Torkel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 07:39:42 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: In the US, Labs are mostly used for retrieving. Because oftentimes hunters only have one dog and they like to hunt upland game besides waterfowel than they take their labs out to flush out birds. However, as flushing dogs the average labs are not as well suited to flushing compared to a dog bred for that specific task. The Springer Spaniel must be seriously considered if one wants a flushing dog. It's interesting that it seems there two different body styles and task for labs in Europe. In the US, most of the lighter and faster labs are also field types compared to the show types. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: New Puppy Training From: Big Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 16:34:04 (PDT) Email Address: jfroio1@twcny.rr.com Message: I will be picking up My new ENglish pointer pup on May 21 at Warrior Mark hunting preserve. I need help on training. I would like my dog to be able to hunt upland game birds. When do I start traing the pup to point and how do I do this. This is my first dog and I'm very excited but yet very unsure how to train properly. Thank you

Subject: Re: New Puppy Training From: Blake B. To: Big Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:36:45 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Big Jim: THis is the last time I will re-visit the force break issue. I was by no means advocating force breaking every dog. Depending on breeding, you cannot 'tease' all dogs into loving to retrieve. Many dogs, many pointers included, can be teased until the world ends and will not pick a bird, bumper, whatever, up. Force breaking nearly guarantees that they will. I would hate to have a dog refuse to retrieve hunting, but at a Hunt test or Field trial I will not allow it. Things happen, but I would rather have that assurity if a dog has shown signs of not wanting to retrieve to hand quickly. Further, force breaking is a way to correct hard mouth. As Delmar says, 'second best is failure'.

Subject: Re: New Puppy Training From: Blake b. To: Big Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:41:45 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: Big Jim: I wanted to reiterate to let the pup have fun. Most important thing is don't get down on the dog while it is young. You don't want it timid. I'm not sure what Hombre thought I was tlaking about about force breaking. I will again say that down the road, depending on what polish you want on the dog, and at an appropriate age, 16-24 months or so, and if you will compete with the dog, you may want to have a pro force break the dog. Of course, you want the dog to enjoy retrieving, but some don't take to it naturally. When the dog is much older you may want to force break it, just to have the more assured retrieve. Although there is no guarantee the dog will by any means always retrieve.

Subject: Re: New Puppy Training From: Hombre To: Blake b. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 20:27:20 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.COM Message: Blake, I still agree with all you are saying except the forced retrieve training. It is my experience that any dog can be taught to by teasing methods as a very young pup to become an avid enthusiastic retriever. I have done forced fetch work myself and use a few of those methods later on to teach a dog to 'hold' what he has fetched until I am ready to take it. There is no big secret to teaching a pup to want to retrieve. Evan the drug enforcement people use that technique in training their dogs to hunt drugs. And no, they do not retrieve the drugs, but after the dog makes his find the dog's reward usually is to get to play fetch with the handler. These dogs are all breeds of dogs, GSP, lab's, Golden's, German Sheperd etc What.I am advocating is making part of the funtime you are talking about for the pup being retrieving. I do as much work on my dogs retrieving as I do on bird work. Though I can teach forced retrieve by different methods, Whele's, Delmar smith's and a few others, forced training is the last choice to be used on slow or non-responsive older dogs to save time (Or a dog). My preference being teaching very young pups to love to retrieve. There are several methods of doing this also, mine involve teasing two or three times a day for about a week before they ever make the first retrieve. And they are never allowed to make all the retrieves they want. By the time they are a year old their desire to retrieve is insatiable, the retrieves are run out, slide to a stop, run back style that get consistant high scores. So far I have never had a refusal to retrieve in a field trial. Retrieving is their ultimate reward for their part, provided I do mine of hitting the bird for them. I highly reccomend Bill Tarrants book 'Hey Pup, Fetch It Up' both for retriever and pointer people. I use many other methods other than what he teaches, but his book contains all the things to make a prime dog and help a person to enjoy him. Hombre

Subject: Re: New Puppy Training From: Blake B. To: Big Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 21:39:48 (PDT) Email Address: adtrend@aol.com Message: I don't know how old the pup is, but my advice would be to get him out in fields, take him to Petsmart, parks where there are kids, he needs experiences. Let him run with reckless abandon and get some independence. Don't call him, just let him run. If he comes back to you ignore him. If you can, get him into birds, preferably game birds, let him bump, chase, point, whatever. Let him learn that there is nothing to be afraid of in the world. You'll be light years ahead down the road. Again, depending on age, don't work too much on obedience, here/come and his name are about all at this point. If he is 8 months or older you could begin a little heel and whoa, but only once he is used to you and has gotten independent. I would also suggest Wing and Shot by Bob Wehle or Delmar Smith/Bill Tarrant's book. Further, talk to the guys at the preserve. They should be able to get you going. I suggest finding a pro in your area who will give you lessons at a daily fee and help you start your dog. If you get the right person, he can help you from starting your dog to a finished gun dog, force breaking, whatever kind of polish you want on the dog.

Subject: Re: New Puppy Training From: Hombre To: Blake B. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 06:29:31 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: Extremly good advice Blake. The only thing I would differ with is the force retrieve training, which of course this is way to early to think of. But there is nothing like a dog that retrieves because it wants to. All of my dogs are taught to love retrieving at a very early age, usually by 10 weeks. I use the love of retrieving and the love of birds to my advantage in training. Allowing them to retrieve becomes a reward. My dogs do not get any obedience training until after they are pointing and holding. Some say pointers have to be force broke. All breeds of dogs can be taught to love to retrieve if done early. I was watching a guy with a new pup (8 week old pointer male) playing with his pup at a field trial. The pup was pointing and retrieving dead quail with enthusiasm, and looked GOOD. Amazing. I am a GSP man, but I wanted that pup. LOL Heck, everyone there wanted that pup. You missed that trial Sam, that NASTRA event was at the high desert hunt club on Jan 1 2000. I got a derby trophy there too, and a litter mate that I gave a friend took nine trophys from four trials. Hombre

Subject: Re: New Puppy Training From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 11:36:09 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: All great advice! I would add have fun with your pup and don't get caught up on other dogs and what they are doing. This question and various forms of it are often asked and by searching Archive 1to 3, you can see many wonderful responses. Sorry, this was not part of the question although you may want to join NSTRA.. Hombre, congrats on your placements! I rarely go to NSTRA events but I was at the San Jancito (spelling) near Lake Perris earlier in the year. Look for a web page of it soon. Do you know Ted Ballard? I met him about 10 years ago at a Bill West seminar at Wally Wallace's Ranch. Good guy and a great NSTRA competitor until he lost his dogs by poison in Arizona. You can email me privately. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: New Puppy Training From: Hombre To: Hombre Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 10:16:56 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: In the above I said: I got a derby trophy there too, and a litter mate that I gave a friend took nine trophys from four trials. That was a three day event with two trials runing simultanously ..... He ran in six trials and I ran in two. My apologies Hombre

Subject: Neutering From: SHettrick To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 12:49:58 (PDT) Email Address: shettrick@home.com Message: I am considering neutering my nine month old English setter because I don't anticipate breeding him, although he does have excellent blood lines. I'm getting mixed opinions about wether it will affect his hunting. The breeder I got him from says it will have only positive affects, if any. My hunting buddies say don't do it because he'll get fat and lazy. I've had non-hunting dogs neutered and they didn't seem to slow down at all. Any opinions???

Subject: Re: Neutering From: Sam M. To: SHettrick Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 12:02:26 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: From what I have seen, neutering does not affect a bird dog's ability to hunt. However, in Field Trials and other forms of field competiton, I have only seen intact dogs. Perhaps, because very few neutered dogs are entered. The benefits of neutering male dogs are many: behavioral it reduces aggressive tendencies toward other males, roaming, urine marking and sexual anxieties when females are in heat. Medical problems such as testicular and perianal tumors as well as prostrate related problems are greatly diminished. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Neutering From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 13:06:27 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: Neutered dogs are not allowed in most dog competitions of any kind due to the competions being used to further the breeds. A neutered or spayed dog cannot reproduce therefor it is valueless in furthering the breed. I have never ran or seen a neutered dog run so I have no opinion on it's abilities. (But man, would it be nice to have a dog that ran past a bush without spraying it) Hombre

Subject: Re: Neutering From: Sam M. To: Hombre Date Posted: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 13:44:52 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: I understand that placements in field competition helps to determine which dog to breed too. For more on this, see Frank's web page. I just did a quick search on rules and regulations on the ualifications of dogs to compete in NSTRA. It says that qualifying dogs must be able to be registered in American Field Stub Book. I suppose that if a dog was registered in the Field and later was neutered than it could probably run NSTRA. Some join NSTRA because it is fun and probably (at least initially) don't really care if they win or not. Sam M.

Subject: Trapping Pigeons From: Scott To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 08:19:25 (PDT) Email Address: Spetty@lendleaserei.com Message: Does anyone have any information on how to trap pigeons or how to make them become homing pigeons. I have set a few traps using milo as bait and lowered the bobs after three days but have to date only caught 2 birds in two weeks. It seems that when the first birds entered and became trapped they paniced and scared the others off. Any help or educational materials would be appreciated. Thanks for everybodys help in advance!

Subject: Re: Trapping Pigeons From: Sam M. To: Scott Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 09:14:47 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Scott, Trapping pigeons and finding other birds to work dogs are a pain in the rear. You are correct, the trap pigeons seems to scare other birds away. You might try putting a cover over the cage so that trap birds don't panic as much. Place water in the cage that might help lure more birds. Also, find other trapping areas as not to over work a certain location. As for homing pigons, try getting racing pigeons from fanciers. Get young birds and let them settle in your coop before releasing. Once released and return to the coop your on your way. Go slow, at first start by opening the door and let them reenter. Later, release them down the block. Gradually release them farther away until they will fly 100's of miles from the loft. The homing instinct of the typical barnyard pigeon is not as well developed compared to the racing pigeon so they can't home as far. However, barnyard pigeons are adequate for several miles. For more resources, go to your library and check out books on homing pigeons. Also, in most cities, homing pigeon fanciers are more than happy to introduce you to the sport of 'Racing in the sky'. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Trapping Pigeons From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 10:19:30 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: I have several pigeon traps. I don't know where you are trapping or how many pigeons come there, but they trap a bit different according to where you get them. I am envious of a friend that goes to the park in a city not too far from him and sets a large trap taking about fifty at a time in about an hour. I use two foot by 30 inch traps and get from nothing to 20 birds per trap. Dairies usually have a lot of pigeons at them, if the dairy owner has his feed in open bins accessible to the pigeons they are impossible to trap. If they just feed cattle from the bins and the dairyman allows you to (that can be difficult too) traps can be set in the pens of cattle or on the shed tops. Some dairymen will not allow the traps in with the cows. Somebody on a former post said they trapped under a bridge. I have trapped on different rooftops where they roost with owners permission. On these I set a few traps and leave abundant feed in them with the trap pins locked open to allow them in and out, and return every few days and replenish the feed. In an about a week they will be coming in and eating all the grain out and then is time to set the pins and take them. And yes, milo seems to be the best attractant. I use that mixed with whole barley, not rolled. On the dairy pens I often leave a 'salt' bird in the trap to attract others to come to it. I place a large amount of feed in the trap and sprinkle some around, and leave some directly in front of the pins so they will come there to feed and crowd. They crowd each other in as they feed. I sell or trade my excess birds to a feed store owner who in turn sells them to other trainers. Sam has it right in how to train pigeons to home. If you live far enough from where you trapped the birds (at least 10 miles) and place them in with your other pigeons, in about four days they will stay put. I select some of the young pigeons that I want to keep and pull out the flight feathers, they will grow back shortly and by then they will be ready to stay in my coop. I have a pigeon return opening on my coop that is usually set so they can return only. On non training days I pull the stop and allow them to fly freely in and out. I do most of my training 16 miles from where I live and it takes several flights to get them to where they can return to me. The first flights should only be half a mile, then a mile and so forth. When I get out to five miles I usually start losing a few, some to hawks and some join other flights of pigeons on their way back. Some take a few days to return. But mostly I use the return pigeons on my own place here and the trapped ones are used where on a large piece of land where I field train. These are also used for water retrieve training. Good luck Hombre

Subject: Important Please Read From: Sam M. To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 07:49:08 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: To All, Perhaps, I was a little naive that our Training Forum would not experience a tread (see entropion) that involved shouting and yelling. It couldn't happen to our friendly and happy group of fellow bird dog enthusiasts but it did. Perhaps, I could of stop it but I felt it was important to get your input and comments. In the end, the appropriate suggestion was taken, however, in the process feelings were hurt. It's a lost to all of us who enjoy reading, interacting, and helping fellow bird dog owners. We don't have all the answers but we try our best to provide insights and hopefully resolve the situation. With your continued support and help the Training Forum will grow and provide a resource for bird dog enthusiasts. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Important Please Read From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 11:36:47 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: Sam, I am going to take this opportunity to thank you for making this site. I wish I had of had something like this when I started training dogs. I have seen a lot of good advice and different ways of doing things in this forum and that is good. Hombre

Subject: Helping others From: Lou To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:36:29 (PDT) Email Address: Nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: We can't control everything that people ask or put out for advice; and we all need to know that other than dog people are on the line just looking to get an I got you for their side!This board has been a good place for advice and has not had all the bull that goes on Franf's. He is thinking about some controls to cut back on some of the crap.In one disc. thats going on now there is someone out of Tx. using the same computer to respond using 2 diffrent names and is on both sides of the point real help does not come this way.Bob gives very good advice,we all have buttons one of his got pushed, his advice was and is good he was just a little strong in his come back.No one makes a dime from giving advice on this board it is all done from the love of our sport, lets keep that going and when a stirer comes around just don't let them draw you into their game no answer will end a debate. Lou Gleber

Subject: Re: Helping others From: Hombre To: Lou Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 07:33:25 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: Seems to me that this still reffers back to the question on entropian. Here is a portion of the mans post............ 'The question I have is, is it acceptable to use this pup for breeding if he turns out to be an exceptional dog? ' That could be no more clear cut. Is it acceptable or not? All of us said no, and the man accepted that response but did get angry at an insulting reply made to him that did not address his question. There is no evidence whatsoever of him being anti-hunter, anti-dog nor any reasons at all to insult him. It was a reasonable question and called for a reasonable answer. Paranoia of animal rightest seems to be the motivating factor that caused the negative response. And if it were posed differently and was an animal movement behind the question (which it was not) that negative reply sure would have played into thier hands. Nobody pushed Bob's paranoia buttons except Bob. That is the way I see it Hombre

Subject: Is this normal? From: Norm To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 20:23:34 (PDT) Email Address: rockypots@hotmail.com Message: I have a 1 1/2 year old GSP who several times a day jumps in our pond and swims around in circles for a half hour at a time. He also splashes with his front paw every so often and sometimes barks at the same time. Is this normal ???

Subject: Re: Is this normal? From: Vic To: Norm Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 21:28:36 (PDT) Email Address: vrstull@aol.com Message: I'll try this again: I live in a hot climate and my GSP's started off young cooling off in the pool. They very quickly became excellent swimmers; long, deep strokes and they never seem to tire. Webbed toes must help them too.

Subject: Re: Is this normal? From: Sam M. To: Norm Date Posted: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:03:53 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Norm, It seems your GSP is having fun. It's probably a great way for him to break the day and get a workout. I have friends that have pools and sometimes their dogs would swim on their own. Their dogs are able to get out using steps on the shallow end. Sam M.

Subject: Re: Is this normal? From: Bob K To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:53:28 (PDT) Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com Message: Norm My current brag dog has never passed up swimming across water in 7 years. Had another that broke ice an inch thick in Jersey to go swimming. She had 25 people standing there amazed. Bob K

Subject: Re: Is this normal? From: Hombre To: Bob K Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:56:10 (PDT) Email Address: AAHombre@AOL.com Message: Sounds like a nice water loving dog. GSP's, once they learn to swim love to swim. Everyone I have had wind up taking to water everychance they get. This last weekend I was working some of mine on chukker in a game club and a bitch broke off and ran to the river, about a 1/4 mile away, came back looking like a vizla, mud dripping from her everywhre and went on point on a chukker. What a sight, and I did not have a camara along. GSP's, almost everyone I have had have had a hard time learning to swim, they splash with thier front feet and try thier damndest to reach the bottom with thier back feet for the first several times in, sometimes for days. I thought my first GSP was going to drown several times and was scare for him, but he made his retrieves. Later this same dog swam into rivers, lakes, ponds and evan ice covered lakes making duck retrieves. One I have now when he was first taken to the Colorado river on his first duck hunt swam way out into the river and was swept downstream. I watched helplessly as he went around a bend about a half mile down, brush so thick I could not evan break through to go see about him. About 15 minutes later he came back breaking through the brush, went past us, out into the river and repeated that. He did this all day long. I had another dog there to retrieve so I just let him be a pup, he was about 8 months at that time. I learned a way of shortening the time it takes a GSP to learn to use it's back legs to swim, I had some that it was getting into hunting season and I wanted to finish off and sell. Three of them day after day would splash out for the retreive, doing a bit better going out than coming back, but still just using thier front legs while trying to reach the bottom with thier back legs. I tied a fifty foot lead on them, put a dummy out, and when they had it and started in, I would pull them causing them to be stretched out. About five to ten times of this and they were swimming correctly. I know this goes a bit past the post, but wanted to put this info out there for folks water training this summer. Hombre

Subject: learning to hunt From: brian e. To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 20:14:47 (PDT) Email Address: sco_ttee@yahoo.com Message: when you are starting out training a dog. what methods do you use in the beginning of training?

Subject: Re: learning to hunt From: Lou To: brian e. Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:12:27 (PDT) Email Address: nujackennel@yahoo.com Message: Brian when you start a pup out take it to as meny diffrent places as you can and just let the pup explore on it's own. Play hide and seek with the pup you hide and let the pup find you. All of this can be done with 1 or a litter it all pays off when you start to finish your dog. The pup will learn to cross water,go through fenses & just figure out the world is a great place and you will be it's #1 friend

Subject: Re: learning to hunt From: Sam M. To: brian e. Date Posted: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:12:36 (PDT) Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com Message: Brian, Do you mean, how do you start out a pup? There's really no set method other than taking the pup out and letting it explore and have fun. Once the pup shows some independence and birdyness, I introduce them to pigeons. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: learning to hunt From: Hombre To: Sam M. Date Posted: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 07:15:31 (PDT) Email Address: