Upland Bird Dog: Bird dog training forum

Subject: dog training
From: Brent
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 07:42:08 (PST)
Email Address: jbwese@webtv.net

Message:
How does one go about becoming a dog trainer? Thanks for advice and info in advance. later Brent W

Subject: Re: dog training
From: Sam M.
To: Brent
Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 07:53:56 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Do you mean a Pro trainer? Oftentimes they start out working for various Pros learning the many variations of dog training. To be a successful trainer one also needs to know about kennel operations, dog breeding, book keeping, field trails, hunting and others. Sam M.

Subject: Recall Pen
From: Dave G
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 15:01:38 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
Ok guys, here's one for yas...I just recently completed construction on a 'Critter proof' recall pen. The basic design is 5'L X 2'W X 2'H. The sides have corrogated metal, the bottom is quail wire (but rests on the ground). It is divided into two sections. A 2' X 2' enclosed section with a full metal lid and the remaining sections open at the top with quail wire. My problem is that the birds do not appear to be using the entrance tube. I find them huddled around the box or find prints in the snow and no returned birds. I redesigned the entrance tube to be larger and cone shaped and there is wire at this entrance area so they can see/hear the birds inside. Any ideas on why they refuse to come in?

Subject: Re: Recall Pen
From: Dave C
To: Dave G
Date Posted: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:28:36 (PST)
Email Address: david@crusoe.net

Message:
Dave, It appears to me the birds are recalling fine, they just don't know how to get in. Periodically train them by placing them in the beginning of the funnel and let them experience the entry, a couple times is usually sufficient. The top of the cone inside should be eye height to the birds inside. If needed provide a ramp outside to make entry easier. Sometimes adding another entry tube helps. Spring is when you need to release only 1 sex. They have the natural drive to pair up. I believe your problem lies in the entry funnel. Good Luck.

Subject: Re: Recall Pen
From: oleman
To: Dave G
Date Posted: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 17:18:03 (PST)
Email Address: oleman@choice.net

Message:
Dave G .First how big is the openings on you entrance tube.Whats works for me the best is 6 inches at the big end and 31/2 to 4 inches at the small end with the cone being about 7 or 8 inches long.2nd.Is the only enclosed area with roof and sides the 2X2 area and the rest is open.3rd.How many quail do you leave is the pen to call the other birds back??4th what sex are the birds left in the recall pen?Sometime it's best to release all the same sex birds and to leave the opposite sex in the pen for callback.5th,how long are you letting the birds in the pen before you turn some loose???

Subject: Re: Recall Pen
From: DaveG
To: oleman
Date Posted: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:08:10 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
oleman, I will have to actually measure the openings tomorrow, but I believe I am now pretty close to the 6' - 3�', but I may be more than the 7' long. The entire pen is enclosed, but the 2' X 2' area is the only area that is covered with metal and it has a opening that has a trap door so I can block them from one area or the other (changing feed/water or taking birds). I usually take 4 at a time from a count of 15 or so. They all originate from my main pen at the house which is about 60 or so birds. The 'Plan' was to keep them together for about 2 weeks, but since I have had to replace them from the first entrance design flaw (was too small)I have been taking them sooner. I never concerned myself with sex, but always left plenty of both behind. I have thought about the possiblity of them not being together long enough as a 'New Covey', but sort of assumed (incorrectly?) that since they came from the same group they would recall. The fact that the birds do come back to the pen but don't enter is why I assumed they were recalling, just not using the entrance....

Subject: Flashpoint
From: Kelly
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 20:26:10 (PST)
Email Address: sbullride@cs.com

Message:
I am working with my setter pup using the wing and string method until I can get some qual in. She has a very intense point most of the time, but sometimes she starts to sneak a little. Is there any way to stop this without a checkcord? I can't really use a checkcord and the stick and wing at the same time. Or should I just hold off until the birds come in? Another question. I live in Cheyenne WY. We don't have any chukars here, but I can get a really good deal ordering them. If I use them will I have a problem working my dog with pheasant and grouse?

Subject: Re: Flashpoint
From: Dave C
To: Kelly
Date Posted: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 08:59:09 (PST)
Email Address: david@crusoe.net

Message:
Kelly, I agree with Sam, at this age this dog should be pointing the scent not the sight of the bird. I believe alot of sight pointing actually increases creeping. The dog first smells the bird then begins to creep in an effort to see it, thus starting to crowd birds. Creeping is a natural instinct. A 'natural' way to stop creeping without commands, is the exposure to wild birds. Pup learns he can not catch the bird, creating a exciting challenge, which in turn will help retain intensity. They may try to creep in many times, but the wild birds will only let them get so close, in turn teaches pup to point off its game, and staunchly. Later, and only after the dog is well schooled in the yard to whoa, or whichever command you chose for stand and don't move, would I use it for creeping. The dog has to stop reliably, off the lead in different areas, to that command before using it around game. Breaking pups concetration by talking can be very detrimental. Be very careful when using liberated birds, they must be able to fly very well and act somewhat wild, otherwise the creeping will intensify. The liberated bird allows the dog to get very close, before it flushes.(crowding) Chukars are better than quail in my opinion. No problem making the transition to grouse or pheasant. When working alone with a check corded pup you can try stepping on the check cord, so your hands remain free. Consistent yard training and wild game, you can't go wrong! If the elements prevent you from getting into game, try yard and bench work. Good Luck! Wild Birds...there is no substitute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Flashpoint
From: Sam M.
To: Kelly
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 21:54:40 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
The use of a wing to promote sight pointing in a young dog serves only for the enjoyment of the dog owner. I suggest you to discontinue this form of entertainment but instead take the dog out for outings and let it explore its environment. Get it into wild birds and let it have some fun. As for birds to use for training, carded pigeons are cheap and very useful. Later you can use game birds but make sure they are strong flyers. By using game birds that act wild, your bird dog will make the transition to wild birds faster and easier. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Flashpoint
From: John D.
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 06:51:28 (PST)
Email Address: jdavisjr@dttus.com

Message:
Sam, pigeons receive alot of mentions for training but I haven't been able to find anyone who sells them. Do you know of anyone or how could I catch my own.

Subject: Re: Flashpoint
From: Dave G
To: Kelly
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 21:53:27 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
Kelly, One of the hardest things to do is stop a pup from 'Creeping' towards the bird, and even harder to stop him/her from chasing it. Much of this answer depends on the age of your pup, however, I do most of my training alone and have the same problem with wishing I had more than 2 hands, however there are several ways to accomplish this. First and foremost work on the 'Whoa' command first. I use a training table and work 'Whoa' to the point where I can actually pull forward on the check cord and pup will pull back knowing he/she isn't supposed to move. Once you accomplish this is much easier to keep them steady with that command. Also,since your using a wing and pole, you can position yourself wherever you like, so use a place where you have a tree, pole or even a stake you put in the ground. You can then put the cord on pup, make a half hitch around the hind flank, use the stake or pole as a stationary device and still have great control.

Subject: what does it cost force retrieve
From: krust
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 17:32:21 (PST)
Email Address: kbrust@midusa.net

Message:
I was wondering what the going rate on force retrieving was. I had a trainer tell me he would gaurantee the job was done and done right. It did not matter how long it takes him he would do it. $300 is the quote he gave me. Is this reasonalbe or not.

Subject: Re: what does it cost force retrieve
From: Sam M.
To: krust
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 19:37:17 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Force retrieving for $300 is quite a bargain considering the difficuties and potential hazzards of dealing with a dog's mouth. Depending on the situation, most trainers command $350-400 per month and they would usually take several months to complete the job. Sam M.

Subject: Re: what does it cost force retrieve
From: krust
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 06:44:25 (PST)
Email Address: kbrust@midusa.net

Message:
Thanks for the info. I guess i better look into some of his work. thanks again.

Subject: Re: what does it cost force retrieve
From: oleman
To: krust
Date Posted: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:57:45 (PST)
Email Address: oleman@choice.net

Message:
Krust Beware of bargin trainers. I force broke a few dogs over the years and It take' at least 6 to 8 weeks on the table 2 or 3 times a day and then you have to transfer to the ground.Not saying that a pro trainer couldn't do it quicker.Some dogs learn quicker than others

Subject: Griffon Pointer
From: Jeff W
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 07:28:35 (PST)
Email Address: jwilliams@avdigital.com

Message:
I am new to the hunting world this last season. I fell in love with it and decided I needed a good dog. I now have an 11 week old griffon at home. She is doing well, and is being acclamated to the feild, and loud noises don't seem to phase her. I take her out to the woods and wander around and she loves it. Is there anything else I should be doing at this age?

Subject: Re: Griffon Pointer
From: Sam M.
To: Jeff W
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 22:28:10 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Congrats on your new pup. The things you are doing are great. Also, don't just wander around but go into the woods for a purpose like getting into birds. Keep the outtings short and sweet, don't tire her out. Later as she starts to chase birds, slowly introduce her to a blank 22 but make sure she is far away and distracted by the bird. Go slow and have fun with her. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Griffon Pointer
From: Dave G
To: Jeff W
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 07:38:38 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
I am new to the hunting world this last season. I fell in love with it and decided I needed a good dog. I now have an 11 week old griffon at home. She is doing well, and is being acclamated to the feild, and loud noises don't seem to phase her. I take her out to the woods and wander around and she loves it. Is there anything else I should be doing at this age?
---
Jeff, Congrats on your new addition!! Now is a great time to introduce her to a wing on a fishing pole. Any wing from a pigeon to a quail will work. You can watch her 'natural' instincts come out (flash points, etc) and also this is a fun game for her. Remember to keep the sessions short&fun and don't expect too much at this age. YOu are only bringing out the natural instincts and developing that very important 'one on one' with her.

Subject: Trains!
From: Jim G
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 00:15:56 (PST)
Email Address: grafix4u@execpc.com

Message:
Greetings, dog wizards. I have a tough one:At the end ofFebruary I will be bringing home a seven week gsp pup (Archie!). I am pumped! I am commited to training - family and obedience first, and field second. However, I will be faced with an immediate obstacle. We have train tracks literally at the back of our lot and the trains are LOUD! They bother me none, but I am concerned over a new pup exploring his surroundings only to be jolted by a freight train! How can I best 'act' in front of the pup to show him it is cool? If he is scared, will consoling him be reinforcing an unwanted behavior? Lastly, I believe 'sit' is an important command for a family dog; if I care not a lick about style points in the field, is it not ok to teach this command as long as results are ultimately achieved? Thank you so much!

Subject: Re: Trains!
From: Kelly
To: Jim G
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 17:35:11 (PST)
Email Address: sbullride@cs.com

Message:
Jim I have a 6 mo. setter pup. She is currently enroled in 2 obedience schools, both of which teach obedience and bird training. Both schools teach the 'Sit' command. My dog sits on command and still holds a very strong point when hunting. Make sure the dog knows that when he is in the field and at work he is NOT to sit. It's not that hard. It took me about a week to convince her that she did not need to sit while working. Good Luck and have patience Kelly

Subject: Re: Trains!
From: Dave G
To: Jim G
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 06:23:39 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
Jim, In a way you have a bit of 'lady luck' on your side. Some pups never have loud noises to contend with until that 'fateful' first thunder and lightning storm which sends then scurrying for cover. Think of these tracks as your way of showing pup that loud noises won't hurt him. Besides the danger of the trains themselves (can pup get under the wheels?), I would start by taking him far enough away as to only hear a bit of the sound. Do something he loves, like play with a wing on a fishing line while the train passes. Eventually you can close the distance (but watch him for the signs)and soon that train won't bother him a bit, and you will have a great head start on 'gun training'. As far as sitting goes, the 'Rule of thumb' is NEVER teach a bird dog to sit. Depending on pup's personality (which really won't come out until the 4th or 5th month), and the way you discipline, this sometimes makes pup sit when he/she is on point and you move to postition or work with their point. Good luck!!

Subject: New to pointing game
From: Jonny M.
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 14:57:43 (PST)
Email Address: jwilliams@avdigital.com

Message:
How are pointers used for late season running pheasants. As a flushing man I drive the birds to the end of cover but run into problems on fence lines. How does a pointer handle a running bird that just won't stop?

Subject: Re: New to pointing game
From: Dave G
To: Jonny M.
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 07:59:21 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
How are pointers used for late season running pheasants. As a flushing man I drive the birds to the end of cover but run into problems on fence lines. How does a pointer handle a running bird that just won't stop?
---
Jonny, Depending on the scenting conditions, ideally your pointer should be stopping well shy of 'Spooking' the bird into running. This can be both good and bad as if the bird has run, the dog should and better remain on point until released at which time the dog should 'reaquire' the bird and point again. This 'cat/mouse' game can go on for a bit, but eventually the bird will have enough and either flush, or think he is safe and remain while your pup holds point and you can work in and flush it.

Subject: Re: New to pointing game
From: Dave C.
To: Jonny M.
Date Posted: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 15:46:44 (PST)
Email Address: david@crusoe.net

Message:
A good pointer runs with a pretty impressive pace, constantly scanning the air currents, head high, for the slightest trace of scent. Upon detecting it, in a milla-second they anyalyse the situation, and decide what action is needed. Perhaps making a quick loop to cut the running bird off, or maybe just applying some speed and graceful footwork to trick the wiley Ringneck into thinking he's goin to pass right on by, but instead, spinning into breathtaking pose that lingers in ones mind mind for a long.... long... time. Pointers are a very intelligent and loyal breed, given the opportunity they'll they'll do what it takes to out smart even the smartest of game birds! If you have never experienced this before I can assure you, it is a moment in time that you won't soon forget!!! Happy Hunting! Please leave some birds for us pointer people!!

Subject: Re: New to pointing game
From: Sam M.
To: Dave C.
Date Posted: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 20:24:21 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Great discription on how a good Pointer would handle a pheasant or any other game bird. I can say, however, this doesn't happen over night but through oppertunity and experience can a bird dog learn how to handle wild birds. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: New to pointing game
From: Torkel
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 01:38:55 (PST)
Email Address: torkel@informreklambyra.se

Message:
My experience is that some of the dogs ability to stop a running pheasant is inborn to some degree. You can of course make it worse by bad handling. I've seen pups, especially a half american half norwegian setter I had, stop hard running birds, while most mature experienced dogs have big problems here. I belive that one important thing is to not be to hard on the young dog when it flushes these running birds once in a while. It's a very delicate line between nailing them and flushing them since the dog must come very close to stop the bird. If you were able to test all dogs on hard running pheasants I'm sure you could find big differences between equally rewarded dogs. Really I belive You should only breed to dogs that are good potential pheasant stoppers, beside all other wanted qualities of cource.

Subject: point/flush together
From: Jonny M.
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 14:52:55 (PST)
Email Address: jwilliams@avdigital.com

Message:
Let's say two friends wish to hunt together and one's into flushers and one's into pointers. Can they compliment each other? What training techniques might help us do so?

Subject: Re: point/flush together
From: Dave G
To: Jonny M.
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 07:34:01 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
Let's say two friends wish to hunt together and one's into flushers and one's into pointers. Can they compliment each other? What training techniques might help us do so?
---
Jonny, While I agree that you could very well use one dog, then the other. I STRONGLY suggest that you do not use them together. Specifically you take a big chance of ruining the Pointer. A flushing dog, such as a Springer Spaniel's instincts are to 'Spring' onto game and flush it once they come into contact, regardless whether there is another dog pointing it or you are there waiting to shoot. Pointer's posses the 'Stalk' instinct that we have developed into a 'Standing point'. All of us know the time spent in keeping a pup steady on point and then steady to wing (and is many cases, shot as well). Only the best trained of dogs can take having another dog flush his/her bird while he waits patiently, and soon he/she will have enough of that and will begin flushing the birds on his own.

Subject: Re: point/flush together
From: Dave C
To: Jonny M.
Date Posted: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:06:32 (PST)
Email Address: david@ crusoe.net

Message:
I would hunt 1/2 of the time with the pointer and the other 1/2 with the flusher. Your friend gets to experience a flusher and you a pointer. If your friends then I think this should be pretty easy to do after all.. your both, bird dog people!! It also gives the much needed break, your pet needs after running all out for a couple/four hours through some pretty challenging terrain. I'm a pointer guy but I think it would be a great mix, just don't hunt them together unless you want the birds to flushing at great distances.

Subject: Re: point/flush together
From: Sam M.
To: Dave C
Date Posted: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 11:37:40 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Another alternative would be to train the flushing dog to honor or back a pointing dog and the pointer to stop to flush when the flushing dog flushes out a bird. It will take some time and determination on both your parts and be willing to compliment each other, otherwise things can get pretty hectic. Sam M.

Subject: Gunshy dog
From: Mark
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 14:14:06 (PST)
Email Address: thmg4592@aol.com

Message:
My 6 month old English Springer Spaniel is little gun shy. I had him out for the first time and when I shot he comes to me and walks very close to me for a while. I have gun tape that I am using and am looking to purchase a smaller guage shotgun. Any other suggestions?

Subject: Re: Gunshy dog
From: Dave
To: Mark
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 06:08:12 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
My 6 month old English Springer Spaniel is little gun shy. I had him out for the first time and when I shot he comes to me and walks very close to me for a while. I have gun tape that I am using and am looking to purchase a smaller guage shotgun. Any other suggestions?
---
Mark, Do NOT take your pup right out with a shotgun. Either invest in a decent blank gun or I have seen (but not used) a special insert for your shotgun that will fire .22 blanks and .209 primers. From the sounds of it, he is a bit 'gun nervous' as opposed to shy, but right now is a critical time for him.....enjoy!

Subject: Re: Gunshy dog
From: Dave C
To: Mark
Date Posted: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:26:49 (PST)
Email Address: david@ crusoe.net

Message:
Someone has failed introducing this pup to gun fire. I believe, you must go back to the beginning. There are numerous, good, books on the market, that are very helpful in introducing gun fire. I would not attempt to shoot over this dog again, until you re-introduce it to gunfire on a gradual basis. Best of Luck.

Subject: Re: Gunshy dog
From: Sam M.
To: Dave C
Date Posted: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 11:43:12 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Dave is right on here. Also, checkout the responses in the heading 'gun-sly brit' in Archive 1 in the Training Center. Sam M.

Subject: 6 month choc lab
From: Rick
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 13:23:49 (PST)
Email Address: paparick@netzero.net

Message:
I got this lab from a coworker that had to move.It's been around kids and in outdoor pens.Not much work been done with her.when i went to get her my budy tested her with a phesant wing by dragging it a puting it in the brush line.She found the sent right away and found the wing.She is not gun shy at all but she wont listen to comands very well.Do you think she to old to start trainng.It's my first time with a gundog.any thoughts or help would be appreciated thanks Rick.

Subject: Re: 6 month choc lab
From: Sam M.
To: Rick
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 17:24:37 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Rick, The lab is still very young and it is reasonable that it doesn't want to obey any of your commands. Depending on what you want your lab to do dictates your training goals. For bird dog training see other posts on training young dogs. Be carefull of gun slyness especially a young lab with what seems like little training. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Gsp breeders in pa?
From: dave
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:34:14 (PST)
Email Address: dkuntz@cub.kcnet.org

Message:
anyone know of any breeders in pa thanks Dave

Subject: Re: Gsp breeders in pa?
From: Dave G
To: dave
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 08:05:01 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
anyone know of any breeders in pa thanks Dave
---
Dave, Just wondering what part of PA your in? I am from Bristol originally and hunted the Poconos most of my life before moving to the Ozarks. If you go to http://www.gspca.org/ you can locate a breeder in your area. BTW, it's a great organization and they send out a newsletter bi-monthly, so feel free to join us.

Subject: Classifieds and others
From: Sam M.
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:12:19 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
To all, I've had the worst flu and I'm just getting back on my feet. It seems my email program suffered a similar set back and I lost all of my inbox messages. That means all recently classified submissions will not be posted. Pictures for the bi-monthly picture and emails were all lost as well. Please resubmit again. Hopefully this will never happen again as I now have a backup system. Sam M.

Subject: Re: Classifieds and others
From: bobs
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 17:01:25 (PST)
Email Address: bs1945@yahoo.com.

Message:
Sam M, What is the cost of the pinch collar and shipping time. htt

Subject: Re: Classifieds and others
From: Sam M.
To: bobs
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 17:18:47 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Bobs, I tried sending you an email but your email address is not recognized by my email program. Send me a private email message. Thanks, Sam M.

Subject: do some dogs naturally hold to flush
From: krust
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 18:43:36 (PST)
Email Address: kbrust@midusa.net

Message:
I have a bird dog that if a bird is flushed he will not chase it but stand until i get there. He is broke to point, back, and retrieve all are natural no commands. Is this stopping when a bird is flushed common or uncommon

Subject: Re: do some dogs naturally hold to flush
From: Dave C
To: krust
Date Posted: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 13:58:33 (PST)
Email Address: david@crusoe.net

Message:
What the dog is doing is called stop to flush. This is usually trained. When you say broke to point do you mean steady to wing and shot? My quess is the person that trained her also trained her to stop to flush. This is a requirement in alot of field trials. This is a good safe characteristic, the dog is not chasing the bird when people are shooting at it.

Subject: German Shepard as a hunting dog
From: Brendan
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 16:59:54 (PST)
Email Address: bkkehde@msn.com

Message:
anyone have experience with training a german shepard as a bird dog? Let me know if this is a crazy idea.

Subject: Re: German Shepard as a hunting dog
From: Torkel
To: Brendan
Date Posted: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 05:26:44 (PST)
Email Address: torkel@informreklambyra.se

Message:
I guess it IS a bit crazy. But on the other hand most of my friends consider my activities with normal pointing dogs as very strange indeed. Someone asked about beagles as bird dogs earlier. Read this and expect even more work. The beagle is at least a hunting dog! Good luck!

Subject: norwegian bitch
From: torkel
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 07:20:24 (PST)
Email Address: torkel@informreklambyra.se

Message:
Hallo, since living on the wrong side of the atlantic I would be glad if anyone could enlight me on the mother of a dog imported to Norway. (The father is CH Hamilton Blue Diamond.) She's called Chill Factor and is after F CH Premium FF CH Grandeur FM Ray�s Daysy FFF CH Brannigan FFM Mac�s Kelly Patrick FMF Pentagon FMM Super Magic FMFF CH Pinnacle M Woodhill Air Murphy MF Wiregrass Bo MM Grouse Ridge Jaime MFF Wiregrass Thor MFM Thors Sugar Sand MMF Stuckeys Toronado MMM Grouse Ridge Ridge Flame What do You think about potential boldness, stamina, speed, range, birdhandling etc? Greatfull for some help. Torkel

Subject: Re: norwegian bitch
From: Sam M.
To: torkel
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 08:52:07 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Tokel, It seems she is a well bred female out of some outstanding dogs. There is an excellent probability that pups out of her will be good hunting dogs. However, if you are asking if the pups will be trial dogs, that has yet to be determined. She has the breeding to produce trial dogs, however, there is a saying 'The pedigree doesn't make the dog BUT it's the dog that makes the pedigree'. If you really liked the breeding and your plans are to field trial perhaps getting 2 or more pups would increase your chance of getting a special dog. Good luck, Sam M.

Subject: Commands
From: Larry Lock
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Jan 24, 2000 at 20:39:19 (PST)
Email Address: llbt1@flash.net

Message:
I have a 15 week English pointer pup. What commands should she be learning at this time? I have let her chase birds in fields now for a couple of weeks. She loves it. I now have an opportunity to let her hunt with a well trained pointer a friend owns. Would this be a good idea? My buddy says we could take her and not fire the guns if that concerned me at this time. Any ideas? I really enjoy this forum. Thank You, Larry

Subject: Re: Commands
From: Dave C
To: Larry Lock
Date Posted: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 09:31:30 (PST)
Email Address: david@crusoe.net

Message:
Larry, I think 'occasionally' taking your pup out with the expierenced dog can have many positive benefits, however I would be very concerned about shooting over a 4 month old pup. Even if you have already introduced pup to gun fire, alot of shooting from a shotgun can undue a young pup and create problems that are very hard to cure. There is alot she can learn from the older dog but you also want her to learn to hunt independently, if it appears she is frequently trailing the other dog you may want to run her alone until she develops her independence. As far as commands at this age your pup should be taught to 'come'. I use treats at this age.I also start to introduce 'whoa' which simply means to stand still. I use treats here also, I'll toss a treat out a couple of feet hold pups collar say whoa, then release pup with 'ok' and a tap on the head. I will also do this whenever releasing pup from the kennel, house or into the field, here I'll release pup with a tap on the head and 2 sharp toots on a pea whistle. This is an informal introduction to this command. Pup will soon realize 2 sharp toots means move ahead, or go on, which is very valuable to increase range or move the dog forward. I use 'hup' to teach the pup to turn, after we're out about 5 mins., when the pup is out ahead I'll give a sharp 'hup' and turn 90 degrees and start walking in that direction. Pup should turn and move ahead, and will soon associate 'hup' with turning. I use the word 'kennel' when putting pup in the crate or kennel. This is about all the commands I use at this age. There are many good books and videos on the market to guide you along. Training Pointing Dogs by Paul Long, Troubles With Bird Dogs by George Bird Evans, Wing & Shot by Bob Whele just to name a few. Good Luck & Good Training

Subject: Re: Commands
From: Bob K
To: Dave C
Date Posted: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 14:09:10 (PST)
Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com

Message:
Dave and I have read the same books and appear to train the same way, BAL. To reinforce what Dave said, I don't see much benefit in running a 4 month old w/a broke adult unless the pup can't find birds on its own. You want your pup to be independent, not a trailer. Further, I start whoa training at 8 weeks over a food dish and acclimate the pup to loud banging pots and pans while eating. Lastly, more dogs a ruined by careless intros to gunfire than the next 10 causes. Have fun, both of you. Bob K

Subject: Carded Birds
From: Bob s
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Jan 24, 2000 at 18:00:06 (PST)
Email Address: bs1945@yahoo.com.

Message:
I have a 5mo. GS pointer, she seems to be intrested in birds. I am wondering about the use of carded birds. How many and how often. I have hunted over the pup,and she has somewhat pointed Quail. yahoo http

Subject: Re: Carded Birds
From: oleman
To: Bob s
Date Posted: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:17:37 (PST)
Email Address: oleman@choice.net

Message:
Bob If you have a hour to train take a 1/2 hour setting up the field.I like to plant no less than 4 birds.Make the set up look as natural as possible.Work your dog into the wind or cross wind into the birds.Do not walk in the bird field any more than you have to.Wear rubber boots to leave less scent.Wait 20 to 30 mintues after planting the birds before you work your dog.Most of all make it fun for for you and your pup.Hope this helps

Subject: will feeding pork cause lack of wind
From: kbrust
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Jan 24, 2000 at 17:33:42 (PST)
Email Address: kbrust@midusa.net

Message:
I was wondering if anybody fed pork cracklins to there dogs. My father raised greyhounds on the track and he said it made dogs be short of wind. is this true. I like feeding beef cracklins but no locker plants render beef any more. So i wondered if feeding pork cracklins is bad. I have also heard of dogs getting worms. The beef cracklins are great supplement feed and keeps the coat shining and the dogs in great shape. Hope i am not out in left field. so do you know if pork cracklins are bad or good.

Subject: Re: will feeding pork cause lack of wind
From: Sam M.
To: kbrust
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 08:33:48 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
I looked up 'cracklin' in the dictionary and I couldn't find it. Do you mean to ask if pork meat products causes shortness of wind? I am not aware of any information regarding this issue. Perhaps the diseases that can be found in raw meat might contribute to your dad's observations. It's probably best to stay with the better know brands of dog food. They offer quailty dog foods designed for the various stages and activity levels of most health dogs. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: will feeding pork cause lack of wind
From: Sam M.
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 12:37:24 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
You could also try different dog food brands and see how your dog(s) perform. Sam M.

Subject: right age for birds
From: Dave
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 15:21:42 (PST)
Email Address: dkuntz@cub.kcnet.org

Message:
I am a getting a gsp pup it will be 12 weeks was wondering if that is to young to expose him to birds like letting quail out in the yard and letting him chase them around thanks for your help

Subject: Re: right age for birds
From: Dave G
To: Dave
Date Posted: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 07:46:52 (PST)
Email Address: whoa@bestoftheozarks.com

Message:
I am a getting a gsp pup it will be 12 weeks was wondering if that is to young to expose him to birds like letting quail out in the yard and letting him chase them around thanks for your help
---
Dave, I sometimes let my pups run around the quail pen and flush the birds around, BUT this can backfire if the pup is nervous or a bit high strung. IF the birds scare him, or worse yet he grabs one and gets 'Wing beaten', you may have the beginnings of a dog that 'blinks' on birds. If he gets one and takes some delight in 'eating' it, you may have a hardmouth problem to contend with in the future as well. I would stick to the 'Wing on a fishing line' or let him run around the pen where the birds are and praise him when you see him stop and point.

Subject: Re: right age for birds
From: Sam M.
To: Dave
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 22:09:17 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
See heading 'GSP puppy training' that covers most of the suggestion for a young dog. As for your question, I prefer to do most if not all bird dog training in the field and not around the 'yard'. Sam M.

Subject: Whoa Harness
From: Kelly
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 10:49:47 (PST)
Email Address: sbullride@cs.com

Message:
I asked about a whoa harness a little while ago. I found what they are calling a 'Flank Cord'. It is used as a tool to teach whoa. Lion Country Supply is selling them if anyone is interested. Check it out. Kelly

Subject: Starting Pups with Bill West Method
From: KP
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 20, 2000 at 12:39:04 (PST)
Email Address: kent patterson@nashville.com

Message:
I've got 3 five month old brittany pups that I've been socializing and letting run around the place. Gotten them in birds and they really are enjoying finding, chasing, finding, chasing, etc. Is there a particular age or time in the development of a pup where you begin with the pinch collar and standing still and working carded birds. The pinch collar may be to heavy for my smallest (runt of the litter). thanks

Subject: Re: Starting Pups with Bill West Method
From: Sam M.
To: KP
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 20, 2000 at 15:05:13 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
KP, At 5 months of age your brits are ready for carded birds especially they are displaying signs of being a bird dog. I would use a pinch collar on all 3 dogs. Its how you use the pinch collar that matters and not the personality or size of the dog. Use the pinch collar and check line the dog cross wind into the card birds. As Bill West says, stand the dog around birds not on birds. Did you go to his seminar in Tenn? Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Starting Pups with Bill West Method
From: KP
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 20, 2000 at 19:05:27 (PST)
Email Address: kent patterson@nashville.com

Message:
Sam, I did go to the seminar last summer and really hopeful both Bill's will return this summer. thanks

Subject: Force retrieve
From: Jude
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 20, 2000 at 09:30:42 (PST)
Email Address: mzag@bellsouth.net

Message:
What is the best way to teach my brittany force retrieve? She is not at all interested in retrieving anything. We have just started training together. I live in south Louisiana, near Lafayette. We don't see many quail and haven't had much of a winter for woodcock. Jude

Subject: Re: Force retrieve
From: Sam M.
To: Jude
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 20, 2000 at 14:57:46 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Jude, Without more information on your situation, it's hard to know how to answer your question. Most dog owners have a hard time with force retrieving because it involves negative reiforcement and punishment to the dog and it is hardly ever completed. I would suggest contacting Lou Gleber of NUJAC KENNEL(504)-878-8057. Lou is a pro and lives in Loranger, Louisiana. He is a tremendous person. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Re: Force retrieve
From: Jude
To: Sam M.
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 20, 2000 at 17:51:20 (PST)
Email Address: mzag@bellsouth.net

Message:
Thank you Sam very much!!! Jude

Subject: Training Forum Archive and clean up
From: Sam M.
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 20, 2000 at 08:52:27 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
Hi, Because the Training Forum can only hold up to 300 postings, I've deleted some old or redundant messages. The deleted messages have already been archived in Archive 1 found in the Training Center. As the Forum begins to reach 300 postings, I will again archive the older messages. Good dog training, Sam M.

Subject: Brittany pup trainer search
From: Ray
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 11:21:54 (PST)
Email Address: ray.a.freyre@kp.org

Message:
Hi folks. I have a 12 week old Brittany Pup. I have started some training such as retrieving a ball. Sit command, heel. I am interrested in having the pup formally trained by a trainer, or joining a group that meets regularly and can train me. I live in Southern California in the Corona area (close to Riverside). Can some one suggest some trainers or groups locally that I might join?

Subject: Re: Brittany pup trainer search
From: Bob K
To: Ray
Date Posted: Sun, Jan 23, 2000 at 09:38:42 (PST)
Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com

Message:
Ray If you have any time at all, I wouldn't put your pup with a traier until he's a year old. You two need the time together and there's nothing he needs rhat you can't give him. That said, when the time comes, Two of the recognized California Brittant traineer/handlers are Paul Doiron in Riverside (909) 688-7334 and Jimmy Berneathy , ? tel/email. American Brittany Club has regional clubs that you should consider joining. The club magazine shows regional secretaries in Sylmar, Newark, Yuba City, Mission Viejo, Ranco Cordova, Turlock, Ramona and Bakersfield. Good luck. Bob K

Subject: Berneathy data update
From: Bob K
To: Bob K
Date Posted: Mon, Jan 24, 2000 at 13:33:14 (PST)
Email Address: rkaneinc@ns.gemlink.com

Message:
Damn poor typing on message #1 Jim Berneathy info: Hesperia, Calif. (760) 949-2596 JIMBERNY@aol.com Good luck again. Bob K

Subject: Re: Brittany pup trainer search
From: Sam M.
To: Ray
Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 20, 2000 at 08:22:22 (PST)
Email Address: smadamba@uplandbirddog.com

Message:
To get a better understanding on bird dog training, you might consider going to the Bill West bird dog training seminar in San Diego, March 4 and 5. It'll be the best money you spend on training. Also, call Wayne Down of Bluewatrer kennels (661) 822-